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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 10:22 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 1595
Location: I shall not capitulate... no never. I may be destroyed, but if I am, I shall drag a world with me...
Plus this kid is spamming the board asking for secrets. Every reply is "dude, please tell me".


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:46 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 510
Location: Puerto Rico
People I really respect all of your opinions but it doesn’t mean I have changed my mind. magicman845 you said that “In almost any magic book you pick up you will find a verse telling the reader not to reveal the secrets to any trick.” If that is true then they are contradicting them self because if they really believe that they wouldn’t have done the book in the first place and I think that the “quote” is more for lay people and not to magicians. I have seen many magicians that share there knowledge and no not any magicians I am taking about pro magicians yeah such as Bill Malone, Michael Ammar and many, many more. In fact almost all of them learned from other magicians by helping one another and I am sure that all this you heard is a marketing technique used to gain more and more money and for what I am seeing it really is working. Submagi I think you are a little bit selfish in your believes, it looks to me like you think that all of this free information should be for you only. Yes this is a public board and in my opinion if a person decides to enter this forum is because they show some interest in starting magic and of curse they are going to be like LIP but that is because they are really exited and want to learn how to impress there friends and please don’t get that magic from them because one can loose that and grow an EGO and put down that person making him loose interest in magic so be careful what you said. Madferit52 thanks for understanding my point of view you really are a good friend.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:38 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 135
Location: Eugene, OR
You know it occured to me that there are no posted guidelines for these message boards. I think some of the <i>inappropriate</i> posts stem from ignorance of what actually is appropriate and what is not. Being that I was new to magic and this message about 4 or 5 months ago, I was not aware of what should and should not be discussed. I also wasn't aware of the "Penguin Only" section until I placed my first order. I think a new post for new vistors might be a good idea listing some posting guidelines. Obviously people's opinion about what is appropriate and not differs. However there are a few things that I think most all of us would agree on. Posting "how to" on tricks is not okay. Posting links to websites that give "how to" is not okay. In my opinion posting information about how a trick works that Penguin sells is not okay, that is what the "Penguin only" section is for. Perhaps we get an agreeable set of guidelines we can get them permanently posted on the website and much of these arguments will go away.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:49 pm 
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Emperor Penguin

Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 9210
Location: Phoenix, AZ. "The Valley of the Sun"
I agree...Penguin should post some sort of guidelines. I'm sure it's already been recommended to them many times. But at the same time, guidelines and rules can't be enforced without some kind of moderating system. They keep saying they're working on it, but it's taking an awful long time. MadHatters forums just went up a little over a month ago and he already has Moderators...what's takin' Penguin so long?


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:49 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 1272
Location: Canada
Yeah good idea..I understand this isnt the place to reveal tricks and especially ask "how to", but, I absolutely disagree with always saying "Hey - I paid for it, so YOU pay for it to; why would I help you? Its wrong to help others". On this board: okay, DONT post secrets - I do agree with that. Never helping fellow magicians: I dont agree with that, not one bit. And I think it was cyberman who said the great point, "Dont reveal your secrets to just specs or friends - but thers not much wrong with showing your friend the magician every now and then" well thats not exaclty what he said but thats what I got from it. Good point.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:18 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 1595
Location: I shall not capitulate... no never. I may be destroyed, but if I am, I shall drag a world with me...
I didn't mean they shouldn't reveal free tricks. I meant they shouldn't reveal tricks for free that others had to buy and are copyrighted. Im not selfish at all. I'll help someone if they ask for a sleight or help on a trick. But I refuse to go around revealing secrets of tricks that are on the market. How would you like it if you were selling a trick, 10 people bought it, then spread the secret around the internet? Then companies are left with copies of things that won't sell because everyone knows how it is done. How do we even know this guy is a magician or not? He could of saw someone doing it and now he's hunting down the secret. Teaching moves and giving tips is one thing, exposing secrets is a completely different subject..


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:03 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Posts: 93
for those of you who want a controlled board, come on over to www.madhattermagic.com the forum is already going strong, and you won't have to worry about blatant trick exposure. And for those of you who are brand new to magic, there are several resources for you too, check it out...the site is always growing.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:15 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 41
Location: Sweden
Just be careful Frijid is one of the moderators and he's tough. No just kidding check it out it's a really good forum where you can share secrets in the padded room, IF YOU ARE APROVED. :) Mabee


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:03 pm 
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Moderator

Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 1199
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Traditionally, the magician's code of secrecy was designed so that anyone who really wanted to learn magic had to make a bona fide effort to gain the knowledge. That meant reading books to learn the moves. In the past, the only way to learn the craft was to have an existing magician agree to take you on as an apprentice. Before doing so, however, that potential apprentice had to prove his desire and sincerity to the magician. The bar may appear to have been lowered by the advent of magic shops. However, just because a person walks into a magic shop and lays down a few bucks for a trick, that does not make him a magician. He's simply a layperson who spent a few bucks. I often give advice to fellow brethren - but I don't reveal secrets to them. My advice goes to performing style and showmanship more than anything else. The purported logic that a book is hypocritical if it reveals the secret is fundamentally flawed. For instance, just because you can go out and BUY a gun, doesn't give you the right to go out and SHOOT someone does it? That is essentially the same with magic. Just because you have the secret to a trick in a book, doesn't give you the right to reveal the secrets.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:34 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 510
Location: Puerto Rico
I am getting a little tire hearing about your magician’s code thing. Take off that blind fold and try to see magic in a simple way. Your perspective in magic is very different from mine I see magic as any art form just like painting, singing, dancing and others. I want to learn magic to have fun and make others have fun to. I don’t want magic to be such an impossible task to learn. I never said to tell magic tricks to lay people all I said is that we magicians have to be more open with one another and if we do that we’ll be much better in what we do and that is entertaining people and our self to.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:25 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 18
Come on guys. I think you all are being a little nasty. The whole exposing secrets thing is out. It's not new. What I have come to understand is that even if people know the secret, if you are a good performer, they buy into it anyways. It's one thing to see the secret on tv. It's another to see a trick performed. Just relax. People know the secrets for the most part at this point. They just trick themselves into not thinking about them. Also bear in mind that this IS a magic forum. I'm a new member so I may not have all of the facts, but if I were still a kid, I would want to learn too. Buying a trick is nice, but teaching a trick is nicer. I used to know a guy named Brian Diaz. He worked at a store called Merlins. When I was a kid, I used to hang out there every weekend and he'd teach me all kinds of stuff. I didn't have to buy anything. He taught me. If I really liked a trick, I'd buy it. To this day, even when I see a trick performed that I HAVE myself, it's still fun to watch. Try to share the knowledge. These are just tricks. We're not exposing national defense codes or anything. The world will still be here after you tell a secret. Trust me. I'm fairly sure of it. I know that many magicians seem to still take offense to exposing secrets.. I am quite familiar with the magicians code. You want to know what I think about it? I think it went out the window years ago. I don't mean 10 years or even 20... try hundreds. Why? Originally the magical arts were taught from one magician to another. This dates back to early Chinese and European conjurers. The moment that magic secrets were sold in the form of tricks, books, videos (a more recent development) etc. is the day that the code went out with the trash. People can buy secrets. Not everyone has the money. For those people, I personally am happy to share secrets. I don't mean to just share the secret every time you perform, but if you find someone deeply interested in the art of magic, don't be a stranger. Take them under your wing and teach them. If nothing else, let them borrow a book (Royal Road to Card Magic, JJ Bobos Coin Book, etc.) You people are so darn intent to protect secrets that you don't bother to remember the people who taught YOU. Enough said. I've made my point. Good day to you all.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:48 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 272
Cyberman, there is a difference between asking for help with magic, and wanting to know how something is done. I agree with you 100% on the fact that magicians should help younger, aspiring magicians with what they need a little bit of work on. Say that I need help on the french drop, and I ask an older, more experienced magician. I already know how it works. I just need a bit of help. However, asking for the secret to a trick that, like Submagi said, people have put their own time, money, and effort into, well, that's not asking for help. That is just wrong and against all that magic stands for.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:18 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 18
I have to disagree. Say for example that you saw David Blaine levitate on tv. Now if you wanted to perform that yourself and you asked how it was done.. wouldn't you want to know? If everyone just said, "If I told you I'd have to kill you." then you'd never know. Then think about if you asked a wiser magician how it was done. He says, "Oh yeah, that's called the Balducci levitation. Here's how it's done (proceeds to demonstrate). If you really want to learn it, buy this video (points to a video about the Balducci levitation)." Now.. which would you prefer.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:47 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 272
That's the wrong kind of help. People shouldn't be giving away tricks, just as much as people shouldn't be asking for the secrets of tricks. If you need help with a trick, then that means that you know the secret, but need some advice as to how to do it and perform it. If you want to know the secret to a trick, then read a book, get a video, or buy the darn thing. And, as far as the levitation thing, I wouldn't ask how it's done. I would research and, if I was really that determined, I would take ten seconds to see the dozens of times people have asked that question on this website, and look at all the answers.


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 Post subject: Re: lip...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:47 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 902
Honestly, why would you ever tell them the name or where to get it if someone just asked you? If they are magicians, and you know that, give them the source, not how to do it. If they are laymen, you just screwed yourself over, now you get no respect, and look like a terrible magician, magic is only entertaining because someone knows something the others don't. Never take that satisfaction from someone that enjoys magic for what it is, its a natural human reaction to wonder. Why do you even do magic if you're going to tell them once they ask how its done, not only are you wasting your time and money, you're taking the entertainment value out of it for those of us that enjoy keeping the audience entertained.


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