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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:32 pm 
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cestdesconneries wrote:
Angel, many, MANY experienced mentalists will often tell you "less is more.", and they're not joking when they say this. You don't want your effect to have too much flair, because that hints off that there's a trick. Then again, maybe you just want to "wow" the spectators.

And to be fair, Mentalism and "Magic" are two entirely different concepts, and you shouldn't think of them in the same way (sorry if I stole your line Edrezin).

If you want to wow the spectators with a trick, feel free to use biokinesis, but all it will be is a trick to them.

If you want them to believe something impossible just happened, put more focus where it needs to be, on the mind reading.

You're definitely right that laymen don't think like magicians, but if you really want an effect to go over well, you have to relearn how to think like a laymen.

Just my $0.02



Bravo


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:38 pm 
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edrezin wrote:
cestdesconneries wrote:
Angel, many, MANY experienced mentalists will often tell you "less is more.", and they're not joking when they say this. You don't want your effect to have too much flair, because that hints off that there's a trick. Then again, maybe you just want to "wow" the spectators.

And to be fair, Mentalism and "Magic" are two entirely different concepts, and you shouldn't think of them in the same way (sorry if I stole your line Edrezin).

If you want to wow the spectators with a trick, feel free to use biokinesis, but all it will be is a trick to them.

If you want them to believe something impossible just happened, put more focus where it needs to be, on the mind reading.

You're definitely right that laymen don't think like magicians, but if you really want an effect to go over well, you have to relearn how to think like a laymen.

Just my $0.02



Bravo
You two have such narrow point of views... I have easily fooled people into thinking real magic has taken place, with an itr levitating some objects, and feeding them some bs about "storing the energy in my body." The audiences perspective is totally subjective and can't be accurately speculated about by you two.

There are people all over the world who believe or want to believe in real magic and are super gullible so all they need is a little push. And itr levitation is not mentalism (which can achieve the impossible,) but just a simple stupid trick (that anyone older than 12 can see through.)

Maybe travel around the world a little bit finding out how people actually respond before making up everyones mind for them. And if you are unable to convince ANYONE (over the age of 12) in the entire universe that magic is real and you're capable of it, using a trick, then you are just a bad magician with an impoverished model of reality.

Just who are these people who were fooled into believing I was capable of real magic? Typically any women in LA who is into spiritual energy is easily fooled. Uneducated or poorly educated people like those who live in the country or impoverished regions of the world, are VERY easily fooled. Honestly based on my experience, and the amount of under educated population I would argue that MORE people believe in real magic than those who don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:11 pm 
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malfy wrote:
Maybe travel around the world a little bit finding out how people actually respond before making up everyones mind for them. And if you are unable to convince ANYONE (over the age of 12) in the entire universe that magic is real and you're capable of it, using a trick, then you are just a bad magician with an impoverished model of reality.

Just who are these people who were fooled into believing I was capable of real magic? Typically any women in LA who is into spiritual energy is easily fooled. Uneducated or poorly educated people like those who live in the country or impoverished regions of the world, are VERY easily fooled. Honestly based on my experience, and the amount of under educated population I would argue that MORE people believe in real magic than those who don't.


I'm not arguing that mentalism is the only way to convince somebody that magic is real, I was saying that biokinesis wasn't the best way to to at it.

I know for a fact I've made a couple people believe in legitimate magic just by performing "Isabella's Star" (shown on Peter Turner's lecture, and is truly a beautiful routine). I just find it much harder to make somebody believe what just happened was real when you do something overly flashy.

I've also performed the Oxy-Clean Coin Routine (by Eric Jones, I believe is only on Extension of Me, but I could be wrong) and am certain I made believers out of people.

I, personally, just feel like having your eyes change colors would be a strong hint that it's just an effect, and not the real thing. I partially feel this way because of how you'd have to direct their attention to your eyes, and partially because I have a strong bias against flashy tricks, they just seem so unnatural to me, and that unnaturalness always seemed to kill an effect.

I also want to say my opinions have changed, sleightly, over time, and I'm not entirely narrow minded like I might seem at first. In my opinion, it's all about the performance that makes it believable. I just really dislike overly-flashy tricks... That's where my mind is the most narrow


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:39 am 
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According to whom is biokinesis too overly flashy?

This is just your personal opinion and for anyone else mere speculation. I can imagine performing some sort of trick (probably a levitation itr trick, my personal preference) coupled with biokinesis, by having my eyes change color just before levitation begins, and back to normal when the levitation ends. I would do NOTHING to point at that my eyes have changed, I would do NOTHING to draw attention to my eyes. If they notice the change great, if they don't notice, who cares? If they ask, or comment about my eyes changing during the trick, I would say something like "Oh did they? Hmmm I need to be more careful" and dismiss it as if trying to hide the fact that it happened. This sort of subtle play creates a lot of doubt in their minds about what actually took place. Subtle, not flashy. (again I'm not trying to make a believer out of a physics professor here, but someone more akin to a gullible woman fascinated with 'spiritual energy' and 'mysterious power.')

Why is it a common belief among magicians (especially the more traditional magician) that unnatural appearing tricks make them less magical?

Seems to me if its something very natural that anyone could do, then its probably just a trick that can be done by anyone. If however it is something seeming "supernatural" that not just anyone can do, then 'magic' must indeed be present in order for them to accomplish it. I have never fooled anyone into believing real magic has taken place by doing card tricks. However when I make ordinary objects levitate in the air without touching them, it's a pretty easier convincer. The trick really does all the work, all I have to do is act shy like I'm trying to keep my abilities a secret.
*Note: When trying to cultivate this image that real magic occurred, if someone were to ask me, "Are you a magician?" I would immediately answer "No, I don't know how to do any magic tricks."

All this being said, I actually think that the biokinesis lenses seem 'too fake' as well, because there are already lots of cosmetic lenses on the market that look just like them. I personally wouldn't use them unless there were more options for lenses which produce a much more subtle effect. (Ideally to me instead of changing the look of your whole eye, they should just changed the iris color slightly to a different color than your natural eyes. I think the subtley would produce a more profound affect.)


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:30 am 
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Okay, I'll definitely give you the subtle use of it.

You're right though, that is my personal preference. However, if somebody asks a question on a public forum, I'll gladly give my opinion. I talk as if it is fact because it is a fact to me. I'm actually happy whenever somebody else, like yourself, jumps in on a conversation and gives a different side of the story. It helps the person asking the question to see more options, and I feel it helps me learn as well.

As for the unnatural part, I was thinking about the presentation, not the effect. Again, you mentioned the subtle variation of biokenisis, which I like the idea more, and I believe that works better. I'm still not a big fan of the affect, but it didn't cross my mind to take an apathetical approach to it.

It's unnatural for a man to produce and vanish three coins at the tip of his fingers, or to tell somebody their birthday with ease and seemingly without asking any questions. These are two of my favorite routines, haha. To impossible, unnatural effects that I feel need to be presented naturally... I'm not sure if that makes any sense outside my head, but it makes sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:49 am 
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Just who are these people who were fooled into believing I was capable of real magic? Typically any women in LA who is into spiritual energy is easily fooled. Uneducated or poorly educated people like those who live in the country or impoverished regions of the world, are VERY easily fooled. Honestly based on my experience, and the amount of under educated population I would argue that MORE people believe in real magic than those who don't.



Wow, so you take advantage of people you feel are dumber than you. Does that give you the same satisfaction I get when I completely floor a few hundred ivy league grads? I doubt it. Taking someones personal spriritual beliefs and using them so you can "fool" them is disgusting.

This sir, is where we part ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:42 pm 
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LMAO people believe whatever they want to believe. After performing loops tricks at the office, almost 100% of the time people say "It's static electricity right?" and I'll just reply with "It's certainly possible" and let them try to rationalize it on their own.

So when I say women who believe in spiritual energy are often fooled into thinking I can do real magic, I'm just giving ONE example of a type of person that may easily believe magic is real. I don't seek these people out on purpose and try to manipulate them in some way. They derive these conclusions on their own, and I simply lead them on by denying its a trick or that I'm a magician. If she decides that I am magic because of beliefs she already holds, that's totally her prerogative.

You're trying to turn this into something sinister or malicious, when its simply the natural result of any trick. People start trying to figure it out in their heads, more rational people try to think of the method used, less rational wonder if they can learn magic spells as well.

I once performed a ring levitation for some locals in Hawaii, after the trick a much older gentleman came up to me and in a very serious manner asked "At what age did you know you had these powers?" Of course in my head I was laughing my [edited] off, but I gave him a straight reply like "when I was 13" or something and let his mind fill in the rest.

This is taking advantage, but not of specific beliefs, just gullibility like any successful trick. "belief in spiritual energy" is just a description I'm using for a very gullible person, it has nothing to do with me trying to manipulate anothers beliefs.

In fact anyone reading this should be able to figure that out intuitively, I shouldn't have to explain it. I think whats happening here is I've noticed that the majority of your posts on these forums are an attempt to argue or grief other people in some way, and rarely ever offer real help.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:31 pm 
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malfy wrote:
In fact anyone reading this should be able to figure that out intuitively, I shouldn't have to explain it. I think whats happening here is I've noticed that the majority of your posts on these forums are an attempt to argue or grief other people in some way, and rarely ever offer real help.


To be fair, you haven't exactly made your posts that different. We obviously have opposing views on some things, and you're more knowledgable than I when it comes to hypnosis, but you're constantly talking down to anybody with an opposing view, or if they don't know as much as you. Sure, some things that Edrezin posts can sound dismissive, but I'm not sure you've got the room to judge him on that. I know for a fact that he's willing to help somebody learn as long as they're willing. I don't exactly get those vibes from your posts sir.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:09 pm 
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edrezin wrote:
black_angel9000 wrote:
What makes you so sure? Probably they will be double surprised,that I can change my eye color and read their mind. The audience don't think like us,magicians.


I'm over the age of 12
You're right this looks super helpful. (black_angel9000 has a perfectly valid point, it's impossible for Edrezin to speculate how anyone other than himself will react. This is clearly just grief, or 'trolling.')

I may use harsh sarcasm sometimes to shake people up a bit, when they appear trapped in a narrow field of view, but I never troll anyone. I still offer opinion, advice, examples, and suggestions frequently.

I encourage debate, as it refines idea, creativity, technique, perception, and yourself. But just trolling or arguing for the sake of proving your're right is worthless.

It's very obvious that you (Cestdesconneries) are not trying to pick a fight, but are currently engaged in debate with me. On the other hand, it's also easy to see that Edrezin is trying to pick a fight, or 'troll' me. The distinguishable difference being that your responses are genuine and his are just grief. Being dismissive and grieving people is in no way helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Biokinesis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm 
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malfy wrote:
edrezin wrote:
black_angel9000 wrote:
What makes you so sure? Probably they will be double surprised,that I can change my eye color and read their mind. The audience don't think like us,magicians.


I'm over the age of 12
You're right this looks super helpful. (black_angel9000 has a perfectly valid point, it's impossible for Edrezin to speculate how anyone other than himself will react. This is clearly just grief, or 'trolling.')

I may use harsh sarcasm sometimes to shake people up a bit, when they appear trapped in a narrow field of view, but I never troll anyone. I still offer opinion, advice, examples, and suggestions frequently.

I encourage debate, as it refines idea, creativity, technique, perception, and yourself. But just trolling or arguing for the sake of proving your're right is worthless.

It's very obvious that you (Cestdesconneries) are not trying to pick a fight, but are currently engaged in debate with me. On the other hand, it's also easy to see that Edrezin is trying to pick a fight, or 'troll' me. The distinguishable difference being that your responses are genuine and his are just grief. Being dismissive and grieving people is in no way helpful.



Sometimes the truth hurts a bit more than we wish to admit to ourselves. Your ideas are at least creative and outside the mainstream box. Having someone with no vested interest in your ideas give an honest opinion about them can be extremely valuable, so I might rethink dismissing them so quickly if I were you. HOWEVER... I sincerly apologize if you thought I was arguing for the sake of starting a fight or flaming you in anyway. I thought the idea was lame and I wanted the OP to know for the sake of the art, nothing personal. Seriously, we are all one.


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