Anyone else find this very not convincing I don't know it seems like it's a system ( witch it is ) and it almost seems like those math / bad self working tricks ( not that all self workers are bad ) that no matter how you try to mask it , its a math trick

ideas?

Well it's not really a trick, just a force, and I've had it fly by everyone. No-one has ever questioned it.

For a great force in a similar vein, try the cut force from MWCCIM (I think it's called the perfect force of a card, or something....my book is not nearby). You'll need a DB helper for that one, but it's very good.

Oh, and don't be knocking "mathematical" card tricks. With the right presentation, they are as deceptive as any super sleight-of-hand extravaganza.

Sean

I had one person question it. I was in the middle of a routine and had two people doing the force. It was a casual situation so people were comfortable with chatting with me as I was performing. One of the two simply blurted out "Okay, you want me to take the original top card, right?"

I found a different trick after that.

what do you do in that kind of a situation, you do just ignore, or do another trick, or force the card in a different way?


lierke

It wasn't simply to "force" a card. It was a matching routine where two people handle two separate decks and both cut to the same card. She didn't stop the trick, but it pretty much ruined the ending, for her anyway. The others didn't catch what she was talking about, so I finished up and moved on to something else.

I'm not a huge fan of the cut deeper force. Henry Christ has a really great force that I will use. Think of it as a cut deeper force without any of the 'cutting deeper'.

I saw the amazing kreskin use this force a decent bit.

Ya, I have been called on it once... so to show them it wasnt the top card I did it again utilizing a DL.
That "set them straight." Beyond that, never been called on it. Just perform it smoothly and dont draw attention to it.
But I like to use this for a force and effects such as DaveV.

I like the move and have never had any problem with it. Done casually and briskly, it goes right by. Of course, what you are doing with it will have an impact on its deceptiveness, as well. I put it in the same category as the Flushtration Count in that I don't use it often in the same set and don't draw attention to it.

Note, too, that there are different handlings of the Cut Deeper Force, some more deceptive than others.

Would doing a good OH shuffle milking the top card add an extra layer of deception?

I think it would. Bill Malone also uses a subtlety of adding two extra cards to the top and forcing them on yourself one at a time, putting them in the middle of the pack after you've displayed them. This way, he gets to demonstrate what the spectator is going to do, showing different cards each time.

And the malone idea is good also. Thanks

I have the person put the deck behind their backs and then continue the cut deeper force. I don't know why, but it seems to really fool the person who I am having do the cut force, and the spectators never catch on either. Brother John Hamman's Triple Prediction is the only effect I use this particular force, and it ALWAYS goes over extremely well, the spectators flip each time the cards match up one at a time.

I think that was originally a Dai Vernon nuance.

That wouldn't shock me at all. I'm no longer surprised to learn that Vernon or Marlo had work on any move I'm studying.

Another interesting cover for the move that I just remembered is to hold the pack behind your back for them to do the first cut and then, under the cover of turning around, use a One Handed Half Pass to avoid having to do another cut.

I find the force works fine the way it is in premise. Of course I used all these subtleties but with proper gestures & mannerism accompanied with time misdirection, it is fine.