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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:01 pm 
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EZrhythm wrote:
54 sentences, oh no. The exercise is for one to get the hang of counting while talking.

But how am I supposed to know how many words I just spoke?


exodus wrote:
I hate the 1 word/1 Card theory. Watch Darwin Ortiz sometime. I love Darwin's work, but I can always tell when he's Pinky Counting cards because his entire mode of speaking changes. The key for me is to time it so that I can run 3 or 4 cards between sentences. Also, if I need to run more than 10 or so, I start looking for other techniques, like spreading and counting as I run through.

It would be too slow to run 3 or 4 cards between sentences, and for what I am trying to do, you need to pinky count more than 10 cards (while talking), I can`t just spread the cards, it will be unnatural. I heard that Darwin was able to pinky count 20 cards in 2 seconds while talking, and that is where I am trying to get (I know, a lot of practice). What do you suggest?
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:07 pm 
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No, he can't. If he can, I've never seen it and I own pretty much every video he's released. When Darwin needs to get a break below 20 or more cards, he generally structures the trick so that he's got a break around 20 to start with and goes from there. One thing that he would do, though, is to count cards 3 at a time. With practice, that pace isn't hard and then you only have to count 7 or so.

You could also rework the routine you're doing to include a Faro Check, maybe even with a false shuffle, instead of needing to count 20+ cards individually, since that's just not somthing that can be hidden easily.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:29 pm 
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exodus wrote:
One thing that he would do, though, is to count cards 3 at a time. With practice, that pace isn't hard and then you only have to count 7 or so.

Can you expand a bit on that please? How does that work?
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:07 pm 
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What effect are you working on that requires a +10 pinkie count? Just curious because if you named the effect perhaps someone else who has worked on it might be able to give you some directed advice. I just happen to know that there are very few people who pinkie count past ten(Darwin Ortiz being one of them) so I am just curious what monstrous routine you are working on that requires it? If it is an ACCAN type thing you might check out Lee Asher's "Touche' is What you Say" found in his "Pulp Friction" booklet. He has a very clever what to get around a monstrous pinkie count. One still can be used but it won't be needed for more than 5 cards tops.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:45 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
What effect are you working on that requires a +10 pinkie count? Just curious because if you named the effect perhaps someone else who has worked on it might be able to give you some directed advice. I just happen to know that there are very few people who pinkie count past ten(Darwin Ortiz being one of them) so I am just curious what monstrous routine you are working on that requires it? If it is an ACCAN type thing you might check out Lee Asher's "Touche' is What you Say" found in his "Pulp Friction" booklet. He has a very clever what to get around a monstrous pinkie count. One still can be used but it won't be needed for more than 5 cards tops.

The main reason is for an effect that I made up myself, and I found no other method of doing it other than that. And the amount of practice is worth it. I don't know Lee Asher's "Touche' is What you Say" but I doubt it will help in this, but I might check it out, because it might help.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:11 am 
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TheTMagic wrote:
eostresh wrote:
What effect are you working on that requires a +10 pinkie count? Just curious because if you named the effect perhaps someone else who has worked on it might be able to give you some directed advice. I just happen to know that there are very few people who pinkie count past ten(Darwin Ortiz being one of them) so I am just curious what monstrous routine you are working on that requires it? If it is an ACCAN type thing you might check out Lee Asher's "Touche' is What you Say" found in his "Pulp Friction" booklet. He has a very clever what to get around a monstrous pinkie count. One still can be used but it won't be needed for more than 5 cards tops.

The main reason is for an effect that I made up myself, and I found no other method of doing it other than that. And the amount of practice is worth it. I don't know Lee Asher's "Touche' is What you Say" but I doubt it will help in this, but I might check it out, because it might help.

Thanks.

Okay, what is the general plot? Pinkie count is not an easy sleight, many magicians really disregard the sleight because it cannot be done without lots of tension in the deck. (I pesonally use it but rarely for more than 5 cards)
I'm not attempting to dis the move but you need to be aware of its drawbacks and understand what you are getting into with the move. It is quite possible that you could get around a monsterous pinkie count with some clever routine construction.

If you really want to learn the move practice it with a Fournier 505 or a Piatnik. It is a much harder move with these decks and will build your hand strength so that when using a USPCC card you can do it with much less tension.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:20 am 
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I'm in the same spot. I use it up to around 4 or 5 cards. Anything beyond that and I just Spread Count. Alex Elmsley had a great method for counting the cards as they're being pushed over, which lets me count as fast as I need too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:49 am 
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eostresh wrote:
Okay, what is the general plot? Pinkie count is not an easy sleight, many magicians really disregard the sleight because it cannot be done without lots of tension in the deck. (I pesonally use it but rarely for more than 5 cards)
I'm not attempting to dis the move but you need to be aware of its drawbacks and understand what you are getting into with the move. It is quite possible that you could get around a monsterous pinkie count with some clever routine construction.

If you really want to learn the move practice it with a Fournier 505 or a Piatnik. It is a much harder move with these decks and will build your hand strength so that when using a USPCC card you can do it with much less tension.
I'd rather not say what the effect is, since I am still developing it, the Lee Asher's thing could help (that's why I'll probably check it out), but I still don't think so. BTW thanks for the tip about the decks to practice, I'm gonna do that.

Why does everyone find the pinky count so hard? Maybe the move is easier for me than most people? I haven't had a lot of practice, and I can count 20 in 5 seconds, and my hands don't even get tense, or any of these things. So I'm gonna keep practicing it so that it gets very good.


exodus wrote:
I'm in the same spot. I use it up to around 4 or 5 cards. Anything beyond that and I just Spread Count. Alex Elmsley had a great method for counting the cards as they're being pushed over, which lets me count as fast as I need too.

What do you mean by spread counting? The people see you spreading the cards for no reason? Isn't it unnatural? But I am pretty sure that the pinky count cannot be replaced by that in my case.
But what is the method that you mentioned that Darwin Ortiz counts 3 cards at a time?
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:31 am 
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I love this secrecy in magic. Spread Counting is exactly what it sounds like. You spread the cards and count them as you do. You have to create the reason for the spread. Talk..ing...like...this...is...un...nat...ur..al. As for the technique of doing three at a time, it's just practice. Hitting three at a time by feel and counting them as one is a hard thing to do, but it's nice to be able to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:30 am 
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TheTMagic wrote:
I'd rather not say what the effect is, since I am still developing it, the Lee Asher's thing could help (that's why I'll probably check it out), but I still don't think so. BTW thanks for the tip about the decks to practice, I'm gonna do that.

Why does everyone find the pinky count so hard? Maybe the move is easier for me than most people? I haven't had a lot of practice, and I can count 20 in 5 seconds, and my hands don't even get tense, or any of these things. So I'm gonna keep practicing it so that it gets very good.



That's a fair enough reason. Good luck with it whatever it is.
No problem on the deck tips, Jason England recommends hand grips but that's not nearly as much fun :wink:

As for how hard it is? Some sleights come easier to some people than others, that is true. But be careful not to underestimate the sleight. Think about your own progress. 20 in 5 seconds is pretty good on the surface but when you think about it within the context of an effect....five seconds to execute one sleight? Do you think anyone who took five seconds to execute a pass would feel very confident about it? That's five full seconds of misdirection you need to justify. At least with Ex's suggestion you are allowing the spectator to stare at the deck while you do the count. I would say it would be easier to find a justification to spread the pack than it would to find a way to completely divert attention from the deck for a full five seconds.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:54 am 
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I have a sneaking suspicion that a good portion of the deck needs to be face up or will be a different color, hence spreading them will expose something. However, I can't be sure because we're not getting all the information needed to help.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:36 pm 
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exodus wrote:
I love this secrecy in magic. Spread Counting is exactly what it sounds like. You spread the cards and count them as you do. You have to create the reason for the spread. Talk..ing...like...this...is...un...nat...ur..al. As for the technique of doing three at a time, it's just practice. Hitting three at a time by feel and counting them as one is a hard thing to do, but it's nice to be able to do it.

exodus wrote:
I have a sneaking suspicion that a good portion of the deck needs to be face up or will be a different color, hence spreading them will expose something. However, I can't be sure because we're not getting all the information needed to help.

3 by feel, ohhh that sounds hard.. Where can I learn that? And the reason why it has to be a pinky count, is because it has to be done very fast, and it has to seem like I barely touched the deck otherwise much will be taken from the effect. I don`t think a spread count can do that. Can it?

eostresh wrote:
That's a fair enough reason. Good luck with it whatever it is.
No problem on the deck tips, Jason England recommends hand grips but that's not nearly as much fun :wink:

As for how hard it is? Some sleights come easier to some people than others, that is true. But be careful not to underestimate the sleight. Think about your own progress. 20 in 5 seconds is pretty good on the surface but when you think about it within the context of an effect....five seconds to execute one sleight? Do you think anyone who took five seconds to execute a pass would feel very confident about it? That's five full seconds of misdirection you need to justify. At least with Ex's suggestion you are allowing the spectator to stare at the deck while you do the count. I would say it would be easier to find a justification to spread the pack than it would to find a way to completely divert attention from the deck for a full five seconds.

It is 5 seconds now, but my goal is 2 seconds. And why do I need misdirection? Even if they are burning my hands, nothing can be scene. If I was able to do it in the same 5 second without having to stop and think, it would be pretty hard to catch.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:24 pm 
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TheTMagic wrote:
It is 5 seconds now, but my goal is 2 seconds. And why do I need misdirection? Even if they are burning my hands, nothing can be scene. If I was able to do it in the same 5 second without having to stop and think, it would be pretty hard to catch.
Thanks.

Ermmmm...Don't kid yourself. There is a lot of tension in the hands when pinky counting. It is a gret utility move but it does require some shade.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:30 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Ermmmm...Don't kid yourself. There is a lot of tension in the hands when pinky counting. It is a gret utility move but it does require some shade.
That`s what confuses me, because that`s what I see everyone saying, but when I look a the mirror/camera, there doesn't seem to be tension, and I haven't even practice it that much. What do you mean when you say tension?
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spread Cull
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:29 pm 
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TheTMagic wrote:
eostresh wrote:
Ermmmm...Don't kid yourself. There is a lot of tension in the hands when pinky counting. It is a gret utility move but it does require some shade.
That`s what confuses me, because that`s what I see everyone saying, but when I look a the mirror/camera, there doesn't seem to be tension, and I haven't even practice it that much. What do you mean when you say tension?
Thanks.

Sorry I really couldn't help you much more without being able to see it. Maybe you could post a short vid. One of three things is going on. 1. You just naturally have gift for the pinky count and if that is the case you could just disregard everything I have said. 2. You are overestimting your ability or underestimating how obvious the move is when someone is burning your deck hnd. 3. A long shot since a pinky count is one of those moves that is exactly what it says it is- you are not actually doing a pinky count. I couldn't tell you which one it is without seeing it. I can see the tension in Darwin Ortiz's hands when he does the move and he is the one responsible for bringing attention to the move.

My honest guess without seeing it is #2 and here is why. There are moves that are tough and everyone knows it. The one handed pop-out, clip shift, or even some cuts like the cobra cut. It is easy to tell that these are tough moves because it will probably take you some time just to get the mechanics of the move down at all let alone do it with any modicum of fluidity. When you are first starting out with moves like this you know you are making a mistake because either a card goes flying in the wrong direction or in some cases the entire deck explodes out of your hands. Then there are those subtle knuckle busters. The ones in which the basics of the move is quite simple but getting it fluid and inperceptable can take a long time. Progress comes in incriments and in order to gain those incriments you need to be very self critical. The pinky count is one of those. Riffle stacking is another good example. I could teach you a riffle stacking routine in an hour because it is another one that is what you say it is. You stack cards while riffling. But making it look like you are riffle shuffling the cards and not counting out individual cards as you riffle will take lots of practice.

So to sum up. Counting off individual cards with you pinky is pretty easy. Doing it while someones eyes are burning the deck and making it look like you are just holding the deck, as opposed to using your pinky to count off cards, is very difficult.

Hear...I'll put my money where my mouth is. I shot this to get some feedback on my pinky counts and riffle stacking. This is after several weeks of practice and there is still a long way to go. http://vimeo.com/16581895


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