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 Post subject: LOL@T11
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:24 pm 
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http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=7134

COIN MAGIC SUCKS!
Look at his reasons :lol: they're ridicules!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:54 pm 
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I think his reasoning is perfectly valid.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:43 pm 
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I think he's just looking for excuses not to do coin magic, because coin magic is more difficult than card magic.
Almost everything he said was very stupid.
Coin magic lacks logical reason? yeah, maybe if you don't speak, then it can become a "manipulation act", but just because HE can't think of presentation ideas doesn't mean every other coin magician can't either... there are a lot of card tricks that aren't logical AT ALL but they are still considered classics; card to wallet, card on ceiling, card to mouth, basically every card-to-weird place...
3 Fly is not a good trick because you can just move the coins with your hands instead of doing it invisibly? well in that case ACR is not a good trick because you can just put the card on top, Triumph is not a good trick because you can fix the deck yourself, etc.
Coin magic doesn't involve the spectator? did he ever heard of coin on shoulder? coin under watch? coins across in specs hands?
Coin magic looks like it takes skill: only if you're not relaxed enough, or if you haven't practiced enough.
Just like palming a card, if you don't do it right then of course it will look like you're hiding something in your hand, but if you use it the right way it can be a VERY useful sleight.

Making a coin vanish is one of magic's true classics, you can make it look like some old grandpa's trick, but you can also make it look like a beautiful piece of magic.

I can't register to T11 for some reason... so I'm posting this here, I hope he will see this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:47 pm 
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I think he's talking about "most" coin magic. The ones that transcend the problems he mentioned are the ones that are the most memorable. I think you need to read it again, you seem to be missing the point of his post.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:28 pm 
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His reasons are valid. i have discovered the same as i perform coin magic


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:43 pm 
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I agree with him.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:27 pm 
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REASON 1 – COIN MAGIC OFTEN LACKS LOGICAL REASON IN ITS EFFECTS

But card magic is absolutely logical. I mean everyone thinks: "Gee If I was a magician what would I do? Probably not making money appear out of thin air. I would just change the queen of hearts into the three of spades. That would be uber cool"

"why you would make 3 coins vanish from one hand just to appear in the other"
The same reason you change a card into another or locate a selected card. Let me spell it: E N T E R T A I N M E N T

REASON 2 – COIN MAGIC PRESENTAIONS ARE LIMITED AND DIFFICULT

While I understand that thinking can be really hard for some people trust me, coin magic tricks are as easy to create a nice scenario and a presentation as card tricks

REASON 3 – COIN MAGIC IS LIMITED IN INTERACTION

Here I tend to agree. Much more limited than card magic at least.

REASON 4: COIN MAGIC LOOKS LIKE IT TAKES SKILL

But in card magic people think you actually read minds right?


Having said that I do find card magic boring. I like that coin magic is difficult and not everybody can do it. And I love that it is so frustrating for card people when they realise that they can't pull it of. But I would never say card magic sucks :D

P.S. Jokes apart, I really enjoy a nice card routine. I may never perform card magic but I really like watching good card magic


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Well, firstly, I don't see how a single post by a new member becomes an "LOL@T11" thing... but anyway, I have to agree with him in general, although there are plenty of coin effects that I as a spectator enjoyed and now perform myself.. there are truly some very beautiful coin effects that people love to witness. He doesn't just flatly say that all coin magic sucks, he says that there are generally fewer coin effects that he feels are strong magic. He even says why some of them ARE strong effects, and that there are equally "bad" effects in other genres of magic. He's entitled to his opinion, I don't see the need to sit her and mock him. He presented his ideas well... laughing at him and saying "everything he said is stupid" isn't the best way to present an argument.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:48 am 
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Here is an article written by David Stone on why NOT to start coin magic:

Quote:
The First Approach: Is coin magic more difficult?

Who said coin magic was more difficult? It isn’t more difficult than card magic, perhaps it is more frustrating because you don’t get convincing results immediately. There are self-working card tricks, they are more stimulating for a beginner as he discovers and learns card magic in a user-friendly way, i.e. in a gratifying, progressive way, and not through a difficult move like the pass.

Unfortunately there are very few self-working coin tricks that allow this kind of learning process. YOU have to find your motivation by thinking about what you will be able to do once you master a technique. I often compare coins and cards magic to the English and German languages: it is easy (at least from a Frenchman’s point of view!) to learn the basics of the English language, then it becomes more complicated as you study its subtleties…just like cards. On the other hand, the basics of the German language are quite difficult to learn, then it gets easier when you master the fundamental rules.

The later is also true of coin magic: the indispensable techniques take some time to master, and only later will you be able to benefit from them. Moreover, you’ll be able to perform hundreds of coin routines with the same basic set of techniques.


The Aptitude: I have small hands

Bullsh##! Don’t tell me there aren’t many coins with different sizes, thickness, colors or textures. We don’t have that much choice for cards! Only two sizes, poker or bridge, and a few brands only or we just looks like fools at the local club meeting…

But everyone is doing card magic, regardless of their sizes, weights, religions or sexual orientation…

Size (at least of your hands) doesn’t matter. Muscles (cf. Exercizes) and movement (fluidity, smoothness) do.


The Ability: I can’t palm a coin

The size of your hand isn’t a problem. The muscle in it is. The hypothenar (muscle located under your little finger) is the key to a good classic palm (the most commonly used palm). Depending on your profession or hobbies, this muscle is more or less developed. If it is not developed enough, you won’t be able to classic palm correctly and must therefore exercize this muscle, just like a bodybuilder would isolate and train a specific muscle:

Take a bunch of keys (on a keyring) and place them on your little finger, and lift the keys with your little finger only, twenty times in a row. At first don’t do more than 2 or 3 sets of 20 lifts, then progressively add more keys. Don’t use more than 10 keys however. You can also use an empty beer bottle - put your little finger in the bottle neck and do the same exercize.

Remember- when palming a coin, don’t squeeze it too much and keep your hand in a flat, relaxed position and in a natural state of rest. A single tap on your hand should be enough to let the coin drop from the classic palm position.

Another good exercize is to move your finger in every directions, as fast as possible, for 60 seconds (use a timer- you’ll see, it is a pretty long time!) while keeping a coin in classic palm position. This exercize allows you to keep your hand in a natural position.


Practicing: I have no time to practice

More Bulls##t! Luckily a coin is small enough to be carried everywhere. You can also practice coin magic while doing something else. When I started coin magic, I always had a coin in my hands… Compared to card magic, it was much more practical to practice a coin move during maths lessons…except when I let the coin fall on the floor !

I could practice on most occasions and in most circumstances: in the subway, walking the street with my hands in my pockets, etc. Notice how often your hands stay inactive during the day and you’ll realize how often you’ll be able to keep a coin in classic palm position, whatever your job is. You want to develop dexterity, muscle tone and sensitivity in your hands, so keeping a coin in classic palm position as often and as long as possible will allow you to acquire the necessary naturalness and smoothness.

Lots of magicians start working on a coin routine without having first mastered a basic technique or move (false transfer, Han Ping Chen or French Drop). Don’t forget that knowing a move (being aware of it) and knowing how do this move (mastering it) are two very different concepts. Just try to imagine some joker that can't do a convincing DL performing an “Ambitious Card” routine…

These basic techniques may sometimes look easy but are quite hard to do convincingly and naturally. Pick a move, any move, and concentrate on it until you can do it to perfection. Don’t study another move before mastering the first one. I know it is a pain in the neck, but think of it like riding a bicycle…once you know how to ride it…

Of course things will go much faster afterwards- you will discover that you can do hundreds of different routines with only a few basic moves and principles that can combined in different ways. Often you’ll just have to change the order of the moves in a routine to discover a new effect and start designing a personal routine.

If later you come across a brand new technique, see if you can replace it with one of your older techniques. This new technique fits its inventor perfectly, but it may not work for you. A technique is like a shirt: there is little chance my shirts fit you perfectly.

Last, remember: When you’re working on a move, tell yourself that the next try will the good one (credits to Harry Lorayne).



The illusion: I’m afraid to get caught!

Coin magic requires naturalness in your moves. Only this smoothness and fluidity can make a coin vanish look convincing (just watch - and read - Albert Goshman). A lack of ease and naturalness makes you look guilty in front of your spectators…who feel you’re not as “clean” as you pretend to be. From a technical point of view, no video or book can make you understand this concept.

You have to discover your own style in coin magic, your own handling that will fool your spectators. There is only one way to achieve this, as Juan Tamariz would say: practice, practice…and practice again.

Here’s how I personally study a technique: I first practice the real move, that is, the one you’re doing without “cheating” (such as an actual coin transfer), the one that should be the starting point for the technique itself. I study this “normal” move until I understand it perfectly. Then and only then do I study the “magic” move, such as a false transfer, trying to make it as similar as possible to the real move (from visual and rhythmic points of view).

Then I try to make that move look as pure as possible, trying not to add “interference” gestures that will make the move look suspicious, by alternating the real move with the magic move.

Often in a coin routine you have to start or end not so “clean”, meaning that you start or end a trick with a palmed or sleeved coin. If you lack the necessary comfort and naturalness during these moments, your spectators will perceive it and the charm will be broken.

Therefore YOU have to work to make theses moves look natural and undetectable. The point is not to act as if the coin classic palmed in your right hand doesn't exist, the point is to convince yourself that this coin actually is a part of your body. The coin is just an extension of your hand, it is a part of yourself.

Practice your classic palm whenever you can, in front of your TV set, typing on your computer, walking in the street. If you want to feel comfortable with coin magic, you NEED to carry a coin with you (preferably in classic palm position), wherever you go. I’ll never stop repeating this!

Palming must become a second nature for your working hand. And if you don’t want to waste your time, practice with both hands at the same time, which is much easier when you start coin magic. It will be very useful later, when you’ll have to combine various moves or palm transfers to develop a routine. Sooner or later, you’ll have to master most of your techniques with both hands, so the sooner you start working with “both sides”, the easier it will be and the larger your capacities will be. I wish I had been aware of that when I started studying coin magic. Trust me…

Lastly, when performing in front of an audience, be sure to ONLY perform effects you’re familiar and confident with. This may sound obvious, but this is important. People hate to be treated like fools, and sooner or later they will tell you that “you kept the coin in the other hand” if this very hand looks arthritic. This is bad not only because they will “catch” you, but also because it will make you lose your confidence in future performances.

Here is a good way to perform coin magic in front of a live audiences: start with short, entertaining effects involving coins. For example, perform one of your killer routines, like that rope routine you’ve been performing for 20 years…

Get confident with your audience and only after perform a short coin interlude, like an appearance and a vanish. Nothing more. Then follow with another killer effects you feel comfortable with. By proceeding like this, in a progressive manner, you’ll gain the necessary confidence (as well as boldness) that will help you in your magic!

Now…Go to work and…See you stone!


I thought this was an appropriate place to post this.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:12 am 
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Awesome article I really love david Stone's DVD's. He is a very good teacher. Ok the guy that dubs for him is a good teacher :P


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:19 pm 
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I don't agree, but you have to admit it was well thought out.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:07 pm 
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Much magic doesn't have a logical layout, why coin magic would suffer only from this?

The good performers are the ones who can put the reason in their routines, too much people go the lazy way when it comes to the creative process of creating a routine.

I too have done it, you too have done it, let's look ahead and work the hard way which is the easiest way.

M.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:40 am 
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wow


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:48 am 
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Sailor15797 wrote:
wow
Thankyou for your insightful contribution.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:57 am 
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clarissa35f wrote:
Awesome article I really love david Stone's DVD's. He is a very good teacher. Ok the guy that dubs for him is a good teacher :P
I agree one hundred percent. I Bought his dvd's and then later on I got Roth's dvd's to see if I was "missing anything" and to be completely honest, I liked Stone's tapes A LOT more. He's an amazing magian and teacher.


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