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 Post subject: Pointing Transfer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:32 pm 
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Does anyone know about and master the Pointing Transfer??

I can do the move now, but my friends say that it looks like they can see the coin actually been placed at the hand... But they can't actualle see what happends!

Can you pleace give me some tips on the move?

ps. I have been praticing one the move all the time every day in a week..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:20 pm 
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Some pointers, its all about your actions, and timing, being smooth and acting yourself like you are just pointing to the coin. Im assuming that when you about to do the move you have the coin placed in the correct position in the left hand right after showing the coin or coins in the left. Its better this way so there is no fiddling trying to get into position after you close the fist. Because thats suss !
Timing is the key, you want your right hand to open just as thecoin is placed, do it in a mirror or tape yoursef.
After you do the transfer, do it smooth and quick but then just lift your finger off the coin a bit. Your index finger will be covering most of the coin because your touching it but just lift your finger off about 1/2 an inch from the coin as soon as you complete the transfer, is a good illusion that you never touched it.
Or you could complete the transfer as you say notice it doesn't come from my sleeves, as soon as you drop the coin off run your finget up and down your forearm, a nice touch Gregory Wilson uses in on the spot.
Just keep practicing, sounds like your putting in the work, soon it will just click ! ! !

Goodluck.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:55 am 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
I've never liked the pointing transfer. A hand that is supposed to be holding a coin, seperate from the other hand which is supposed to be holding another coin shouldn't be pointing into, or touching the other hand. The spectators know that something is happening at that moment, maybe not what exactly, but they know something fishy just went on.

We all want to have the perfect coins across routine, with no gimmicks. We want it to look amazing and impossible, and we want to do it with nothing but a mastery of sleight of hand and a good grasp of presentation style. But here's some facts that I've learned over the past 20 or so years that may or may not matter to anyone:

1. No gimmick-free coins across comes close to the level of amazement that a gimmicked coins across (perfromed well) can accomplish.

2. Non-gimmicked coins across routines invariably use a series of complex moves (multiple pinches, fingertip transfers, etc.) that require thought and technique to deliver, making it very difficult to interact with your audience on a smooth and flowing level. Using gimmicks simplifies the process, leaving the magician free to interact with spectators more efficiently.

3. Non-gimmicked coins across require a high level of trust from the audience, making it a difficult effect to open with if you want the spectators to really believe what they're seeing.

And finally, and most importantly...

4. Magic is about performance and taking the spectator outside of their idea of reality for a moment. It's about entertaining and amazing people. It is not about who can do the best pinch or pointing transfer. If you sacrifice the level of performance because you egotisically and selfishly need to do it a certain way, your way, and perhaps not the best and most entertaining way, you lose sight of what you're doing and why you're doing it in the first place. Just because you impress yourself with a perfectly executed pinch move or pointing transfer, dosen't mean your spectators know about it, appreciate it, or are entertained by it.

Spend less time on perfecting that one move, and more time on perfecting the routines as a whole.


<><> SunDragon Magic <><>
www.dmimfg.com/magicsupplies.htm

"Question Reality... Create Illusions"


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 Post subject: Thank you both
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:31 am 
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Thank you both VERY much!
They were very helpful answers you'd came up with!!
I know that I not yet have much experience but if your looking for a comment, point of view, or anything else.. Then feel free to ask me!

Thanks alot!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:19 pm 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
You're welcome.

BTW, since you're working on the pointing transfer, I'll assume that you have Sankey's Rev. Coin Magic. Try working on the one-at-a-time coin across from left to right. The one that he does using the coin roll and han ping chen (or the one where he scopes the coin in mid air). I use those all of the time, and they kill.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am 
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I agree with wildstone on some points. But disregard all that and you still have in my opinion the most amazing and magical coins across for lay people and they love it. I do this all the time and it kills people. As Jay says there is no where for them to go with it, its just really clean. Also to get good at the routine you need to master the moves mirst. I personally think his HPC with the coin roll is a lot harder to master than the goshman pinch and always looks suss to people, its just not as smooth and Im quite good at it, I just look at myself on tape and think those are not natural moves.
Quote - "If you sacrifice the level of performance because you egotisically and selfishly need to do it a certain way, your way".

Its his way because he came up with the performance - Where in Mr Clean is he sacrificing the level of performance. The effect needs little patter. Greg Wilsons 3/4 Across uses little patter also.

Quote "Just because you impress yourself with a perfectly executed pinch move or pointing transfer, dosen't mean your spectators know about it, appreciate it, or are entertained by it."

Has Jay done something wrong here, Firstly a perfectly executed pinch is whats needed in this particular effect, Secondly you don't want your spectators to know about it, its suppossed to be magical and when I perform this it KILLS ! ! ! ! ! ! They are certainly entertained by it ! Best cleanest coins across ever !

This is all just my opinion I had to voice and no-one may care (I don't care either way), Jay is great in my book.

Work on your pointing transfer, its a great clean transfer that looks great too, it will work wonders and its good to get a vast array of different moves, steals, puts and transfers.

Practice makes Perfect ! ! !

Good Luck


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:54 am 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
I'm not referring to Jay's handling of Mr. Clean... he is flawless with it, and for him, his way is the best and most entertaining way. But we're not all as skilled at those particular moves as he is, I know I'm not. BTW, as far as the HPC move, if you show the coins as they appear in the right hand by sweeping your right arm from left to right, showing the coin to all specs, as well as showing the hand empty except for the coin, it does look natural when you "put the coin down" on the table.

I think you may have missed my point here. I was giving advice to KAzuko, not commenting on Jay's performances. However, a well scripted, gimmicked coins across gives the specs nowhere to go as well. A second of cleanup at the end and you're good to go. My point is that entertainment and amazement is what we're trying to do, and sometimes magicians get too focused on executing the perfect move for their own personal reasons, that they forget about everthing else, like how it looks and plays to an audience, or how it could be done in a better and more amazing way. Sometimes we get wrapped up in ourselves and our ability to perfrom a certain move, just because we want to be able to do it that way, and in the process lose sight of the overall performance. That's all.

I'm a big Sankey fan BTW.


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 Post subject: Big fan too..
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:06 am 
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I have caught my self saying something like: Dooh! I just screwet up man! I am sorry!
And they went like: What?? It looked amazing!! Keep on.. !
And that was just because I didn't execute a Pinch perfect.. or something like that!
I have really being thinking of what you both have wrote! And now I have started to think much more of the routines from the spectators point of view!
A routine is not great just because you use a great arsenal og sleights and moves, that are invisible to the audience!! It is what the impact is and how it looks to the audience!
One of the first times I watched the Rev. Coin Magic tape, the one routine that I found most interesting was the one with coin roll and HPC!
It looked simple and it looked clean and impressive!
But I personally like coins across routines most of all!
Or what ever? I´am just weird...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:20 am 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
I still, every once in a while, will do that "doh!" thing. I have come up with a few better recoveries though, here's a couple for ya:

Me (as I very visually screw up a move): "Hmmm, did you see that?"
Spectator: "No, what?"
Me: "Then I must be quicker than I look"

Me (as coin accidentally falls out of palm): "There it is! I was wondering where that one was."

Me (As I lose my place in a routine, or go blank altogether): "We interupt this trick for a test of my brain. This is only a test." OR "We interupt your regularly scheduled trick to bring you this other trick that I didn't forget how to do..."

Those are basically wordy versions of "Doh!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:10 am 
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Lol..

Thank you!

one thing:

Can you tell me what the difference is between Jay Sankeys Mr. Clean.. and Gregory Wilsons 3/4 routine??

I don't know about Gregs yet..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:38 am 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Greg Wilson's 3/4. I have read many glowing reviews about it, but that's about it.


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 Post subject: Retention Open Palm Steal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:17 am 
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Do you know about the R.O.P.S. technic? I just had this idea:
Instead of using Pointing Tranfer in Mr. Clean, use ROPS!!
It looks ALOT more convincing!!
Another thing:
What do you think about the last part of Mr. Clean? to put the coin "unseen" into the hand?? I would never put a move like that into my routine... Maybe thats just me... ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:08 am 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
Are you talking about when Jay taps the two coins in his right hand with the "coin" that he's pretending to hold in his left hand? If so, that actually works for me... it's a matter of letting the spectator see the coin in your left hand, but then letting it slide into the right hand as you pretend to tap the coin that's already in that hand. If you're talking about something else, please fill me in. It's been a while since I watched Rev. Coin Magic.

As far as ROPS goes, I use retention of vision steals all of the time, ala Roth and Sankey, but I'm not quite sure what the "open palm" part of that move is. Is this move different from Roth's classic upturned palm retension vanish?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:15 am 
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R.O.P.S. quick description:

The coin lays in your open palm, freely shown.
The you point at it once or twice while you saying "one coin here" now you close your hand around it and when you opens it again the coin is gone!
Then only place I have seen someone using it is on Encyclopedia od Coin Sleights vol. 3!
But I think its very effective!!!



about the tap-thing.. You got that right! I just doesn't feel good to me..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:54 pm 
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Location: ... the halls of Valhalla. Where the fallen warriors awaken, and the brave shall live forever.
When I do a retention vanish, I'll put the coin in my hand, start to curl my fingers around it, and then, at the last second, take it back out to "show it" to the spectator 1 more time, before I actually do the steal. It kind of combines a loose Bobo switch and retention because the spectator sees me put the coin in and remove it, and the action of putting the coin in the hand is repetetive by the time I actually steal it. I mimic the hand actions exactly, both when I really put the coin in the hand, and when I perform the retention vanish a second or two later. It seems to sell the retention vanish 110%. I'll have to look into more details on the ROPS method.

BTW, it always seems weird doing things with coins that aren't really there. The finger tip steal, Sankey's tapping thing, they all seem unbelievable to us, and it's hard to move your fingers and hand as if there really is a coin there, but it does look convincing to the audience. Practice different variations of taking coins without really taking them, get comfortable with it, and try it out on a few people. I think you'll start to like it, and it's a staple utility move, like a shuttle pass or spellbound.

As for me, I'm spending the day (and most of the last week) working on new variations of CSB transposition. I've nailed the basics of a killer routine, but it needs refinement. If you have that effect, let me know, and I'll PM you with a few ideas.


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