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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:12 pm 
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miniserb725 wrote:
2. By its nature, it has to be based on Democracy. If the system involves the election of representatives, then the representatives are responsible to their constituents to be re-elected. If the constituents aren't happy, bye-bye representative. However, the problem is that all these systems, republics, monarchies, and even socialist dictatorships look great on paper. Every single one does seem very good in theory. But in practice, unintended consequences come into play, and the result of these is a matter of opinion whether they're good for the nation or not.

Just my take on it.

-JT


Wasn't the former USSR a "Republic"?

I never realized that those communists were running a democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:24 pm 
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You're making a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Democracy and Communism are not on opposite ends of a spectrum. Socialism is also not contradictory to democracy. Look at the proper name of Sri Lanka. It's the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka.

Like I said before, the foundation of the USSR was supposedly to create a Proletarian society. No haves and have-nots, an equal society where the people benefit equally and actions are taken for the good of the group.

The theory isn't the problem. It's the people interpreting and implementing the theory that are the problem.

The USSR said it was made up of Republics, but did they actually have people electing representatives?...

So was it really a Republic?

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:46 am 
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miniserb725 wrote:
You're making a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Democracy and Communism are not on opposite ends of a spectrum. Socialism is also not contradictory to democracy. Look at the proper name of Sri Lanka. It's the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka.

Like I said before, the foundation of the USSR was supposedly to create a Proletarian society. No haves and have-nots, an equal society where the people benefit equally and actions are taken for the good of the group.

The theory isn't the problem. It's the people interpreting and implementing the theory that are the problem.

The USSR said it was made up of Republics, but did they actually have people electing representatives?...

So was it really a Republic?

-JT

Good...often confused point. Thanks for bringing that up. To add a bit... Democratic rule is best paired up against totalitarianism, either through oligarchic(USSR) or despotic(the vast majority of governments from the beginning of time) rule.

Communism should be paired with Capitalism and Socialism falls somewhere in between. It is essentially a continuum from one to the other which describes to what degree you allow your government to control your economic sphere.

Most governments in the modern world elect to institute some level of socialism. To what degree you are socialist varies from state to state (referring to country states not states of the U.S.) as does the degree you admit to socialism.

Even the U.S. is a highly socialized state. We were probably closest to achieving a capitalist state in the period between the Civil War and WW1...then Upton Sinclair came along and we have seen increasing regulations governing business practices ever since. Many Americans claim they want to be capitalists but very few want to work in a sweat shops.

If anyone is interested in the rise of philosophical capitalism I recommend you read Max Weber's "Protestant Ethic and The Theory of Capitalism." You could also read Karl Marx's "Das Kapital" which is his less dogmatic, more analytical critique of capitalism and communism. Don't bother with Marx's "Communist Manifesto" as it is more of his ideological viewpoints than a rational critique.

In short, you can be a totalitarian despot and a capitalist and you can be a republican and a communist.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:05 pm 
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miniserb725 wrote:
You're making a dichotomy that doesn't exist.

.....

The USSR said it was made up of Republics, but did they actually have people electing representatives?...

So was it really a Republic?

-JT

Dichotomy?
Wow, you must go to a good school 8)

Actually, you are right.
As we all know, there were elections in the Soviet Union with candidates diligently selected by the local CPSU.

I guess they DID have people electing representatives. So, YES, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a republic.

... and thus we agree that the Soviet Union was a democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Kinda hard to call it a fair and free election when the Communist Party puts up a single candidate and says "Vote."

And as for opposing candidates, well they tended to end up like Trotsky. You know, in Mexico with an ice pick in the back of their head.

So I'll ask again, was it a republic? Certainly not a working one.

My analogy:

A clock is a device that keeps time.
I have a clock on my wall.
It runs out of batteries, or stops functioning in another way.
My friend asks "What is that thing?"
I can call it a clock, but it's not functioning the way a clock is meant to.

-JT

EDIT: I'm not sure if your comment about my school was supposed to be sarcasm or what (hard to tell these things when they're in type), but dichotomy for me came to mind before "a pair of opposing ideas".


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:25 pm 
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No sarcasm....I agreed with your post and attempted to add to it. I was not commenting on whether USSR was a republic or not merely stating that in "Theory"(big quotes here) you can be a republican and a commie pinko. In practice the USSR had a Totalitarian dictator under Lenin and Stalin that evolved into an Oligarchic system from the 50s up until it's collapse.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:33 pm 
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That part was directed at ElConquistador. Sorry for the confusion!

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:37 am 
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miniserb725 wrote:
Kinda hard to call it a fair and free election when the Communist Party puts up a single candidate and says "Vote."

And as for opposing candidates, well they tended to end up like Trotsky. You know, in Mexico with an ice pick in the back of their head.



Are there other criteria to being a "democracy"? Do all elections have to be "fair" or "free" to constitute a "democracy"?

In fairness, the USSR only had one political party, so I understand idea that it could be a oligarchy. However, that one political party was basically open to all lawful citizens. And this concept isn't much different that the two-party system which rules defacto in the USA.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:59 am 
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The difference being that the representatives here are actually responsible to their constituents to a degree. Hence why Representatives to the House are campaigning almost as soon as they're elected!

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:16 am 
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I think I'll need a definition as to what exactly constitutes a "democracy" and "republic" in your opinion as each new post has a new criteria.



miniserb725 wrote:
By its nature, it has to be based on Democracy

miniserb725 wrote:
You're making a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Democracy and Communism are not on opposite ends of a spectrum. Socialism is also not contradictory to democracy.

miniserb725 wrote:
Kinda hard to call it a fair and free election when the Communist Party puts up a single candidate and says "Vote."

One minute, you claim a republic has to be a democracy. Then you claim that my favorite republic isn't a democracy.

Now I'm confused.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:04 am 
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Based on democracy, as in responsible to the people. Read my clock analogy. Your "republic" was a republic only in name. It didn't perform the functions of a republic.

You can say that technically they held elections, and all of that nonsense, but really it's just hot air if you're only looking surface deep.

Governments can call themselves a lot of things, but what they actually DO is what you need to base analysis on.

I'm here for magic and fun, not debating governmental theory anymore. You seem to have differing opinions from me. If you'd like to PM me your other ideas or post them here, I'll read them but I don't really feel like posting about it anymore.

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:35 pm 
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You are all wrong. This isn't a democracy or a republic. This is an Oligarchy and has been since the creation of the Federal Reserve. President's are just puppets of the Bilderberg group. We the people have no representation, they flouridate our water, and we are at the mercy of Agenda 21's population control plan. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:07 pm 
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cspace11 wrote:
You are all wrong. This isn't a democracy or a republic. This is an Oligarchy and has been since the creation of the Federal Reserve. President's are just puppets of the Bilderberg group. We the people have no representation, they flouridate our water, and we are at the mercy of Agenda 21's population control plan. lol


and they have been inserting computer chips into newly born children since the 80s, so I don't think we'll be able to change it now.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Sure we can change it...we just have to vote for people not on their payroll. ie not democrats OR republicans. One group pulling left and another pulling right causes nothing but tension. We need to get back to the middle of the road. Maybe vote libertarian???


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Internet kill switch plan approved by US Senate panel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:19 am 
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Yesterday was primary day is some states and surprisingly the Tea party won is a few elections. GO TEA PARTY!! It's time we voted the incompetents, oops meant "incumbents" but they are synonymous anyway.


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