Well for one thing I buy 5000 balloons every month. yes I go thru that many in 30 days because I work at entertaining full time. Some weekend nights i am at a restaurant just twisting for 4 straight hours going from table to table and every kid (sometimes adults) gets a balloon hat. I get paid by the restaurant but I get tipped by the customers and the faster I can turn out a 3 or 4 balloon hat the more money I'll make.

Paddy

It's the same here, during the summer when busking (no one busks in minus 20c) I was going through a couple thousand a month. If you don’t get quick with twisting the line doesn’t move and money doesn’t come in. On the busy days I had my girlfriend with me to do the marker work. This allowed me to move on to the next customer.

When I didn’t have a line I would work on larger "show pieces" that got people to stop. These were the only ones I would set a price on. I'm not going to let a sculpture with 12 balloons walk away for less than it cost me.

I'm looking at getting a restaurant this winter. My marketing will be going out in January

I used to be alot better at baloon sculpting than magic. Hats are great, seriously a hat can be anything you want it so learn those.
GET INSURANCE!
Latex allergies and choking injuries are not something to be paid out of pocket.

-thank you

Maybe I didn't explain myself clear enough. The clowns charging $125.00 do at best, two shows a month. They do facepainting (crap) and balloons (more crap). The good balloon twisters in Saint Louis (myself, two others) charge about the same price for events.
I don't particuarly need to concern myself with what others are charging. Sure there is a business aspect where I shouldn't underbid myself, but I feel at this point and time for what I offer, $90.00 an hour is just about right. Just because you can get 125 for a gig doesnt mean you should charge it. darn, lol where are the ethics in this business anymore?!? Doesn't anyone care about the customers more than a paycheck. I think that is the reason I stay so busy. Yes, of course I do need a paycheck to live, but my god I don't need to hustle people for every penny they have.

I could be taking your post incorrectly so please inform me if I am but is it just an ego trip to charge 25 bucks more than your competition?
See, my style of entertainment has no competition. I am not the same as the clowns I see. I do not need to charge the same as something I am not. Thats how I stayed booked with 7 restaurants and shows on the weekends. I am going to answer a question that I can already see coming up. 7 Restaurants, 4 are every week, 1 is booked out to another entertainer, and 2 are once a month.

Don't take this as a personal attack, as nothing of the sort was intended. But it just seems as if there are a lot of short fuses here on the discussion boards.

bookmagicnow.. you are absolutely right about the ethics and people in forums having short fuses.

bookmagicnow wrote: To take these comment serialatum:
YES you do. reemember this is a business. If it's not then do everything for free. Your rate, being lower, says that you don't think you're as good as all the others.

Where are your ethics? By undercutting the other entertainers you are giving the customers a cheap show. Cheap means just that, not inexpensive but cheap as in shoddy.

No, I stay booked, even tho I am higher priced for a reason. In fact it is the same reason that you mention in your last comment. I am better than the others. I work DAM hard to be better than everyone else. Why shouldn't I be paid for all the reehearsal time I spend, for all the props I own or have made, for my time and effort to get there on time and give a show that will be remembered for years to come. If you are an entertainer then be a professional entertainer. Your prices tell me you are an amateur trying to make a couple of extra bucks on the side.

I've booked shows when a client told me that "X is cheaper." My reply is "Yes, I have a deal with him, he doesn't raise his price to match me and I don't lower my quality to match him. You don't get a Cadillac for the price of a junker used car."

You just aren't understanding what I am explaining. Let me try to put it in better terms with an example of something more relevant.

Cars:
You said yourself " You don't get a Cadillac for the price of a junker used car."

Fair enough. Cadillac costs $40,000. Junker car cost $500. I'm selling a car for $30,000.

I'm not overbidding nor underbidding. I am creating a fair market price for what I have to offer. And if the people think that they are getting a deal for what I have to offer, THEN GREAT! That's my goal. I'm not cutting myself short. I am not cutting anyone else short. These other people charging ridiculous amounts are cutting their nose to spite their face.

On your side of the issue.
Cadillac costs $40,000. Junker car costs $500. You are selling a car for $50,000.
Why? Because you can.

See the difference? I'm charging a fair price as you overcharge simply because you can. You haven't provided a specific reason as to why you would charge the amount of $25.00 over what any other entertainer quotes. Maybe I wouldn't be so offended by this if there was a particular reason. But it troubles me that the business of magic and balloons is becoming another simple business chain.

I have even a better example of how I view this issue.
BOTTLED WATER; this is what I see..... I get my water from a well put it into a bottle and charge $2.00 for it.... You get your water from the same well put it in a bottle and charge $3.00 for it. Where the extra dollar comes in? Arrogance and greed.

I would hate to see this post get locked because of the comments exchanged between Paddy and I. I feel that there is some very useful knowledge within the posts. You just may have to dig a little to find it.

I do understand that you are undercutting price. this has untold effects on YOU. Other magi at your ring or assembly meetings will just blacklist helping you for undercutting them.

To get to your car example to set it right. You say:

WRONG, IGOR! I charge $40,000 because that what a Cadilac is worth. Maybe a little more because the extras are included and it is not the "off the floor" Caddy.

The difference is I give them a value packed show and I do many repeat shows and get refferrals from the people who see my show even tho I am more expensive than others because I am worth more.

Another way to look at this is how long is youir show? And your answer is wrong. Let's say your party is 1 hour. Your show is not one hour. When do you get into costume to start? How long to drive to the party, how long to drive home? Add all these together and you have between 2 and 3 hours. And you cut your price $35 less than others. They are getting paid for the WHOLE show time. You are getting paid only for stage time. Seems to me that the prep time is worth something.

Paddy

Okay so you charge 40,000 for the cadillac because that is what it is worth....
I am curious for the extra 25.00 dollars then? Where does that come into play? Why 25.00? Why not $10.00?

What is the significance with $25.00?

I am trying to understand the exact pricing with what you perform.

Paddy gets the higher rates because that is what he is worth. He knows what he is worth and his fee reflects that.

Your car example makes little sense because it leaves the buyer with a feeling of regret. If I wanted a car I would like the best. That is a normal human want. Now if I buy your cheaper car then I am left with the feeling that if only I spent that little more I could have the best.

Your fee reflects what you think you are worth. Lets say you charge $20 an hour for balloon work. People will hire you but they will expect very little from you. Well that is great right, people already think you are an okay balloon worker. First impressions are everything and it starts with your fee.
Now you are at the event and you do a good job. You do good work and get your check. The people that hired you look at what you did and think well that is pretty good, if he was this good I wonder what I would have gotten if I hired the more expensive guy.
You have created want... But for another performer. They will be getting your clients and will be making more than you.

It is a failing system and it starts with your fee. Paddy knows he is worth something. He has worked for years and is very good at what he does. He is worth his fee. You on the other hand are undercutting yourself. People see that and will hire someone else.


Dylan

I could simply reply with "No, no, no, no, no" but instead I'll explain your misunderstanding of this debate.

The average laymen who books someone for an event to make balloons does not know the difference between balloonists. Lets separate balloon twisters into two categories. Ones who make ONE balloon sculptures (i.e. dog, sword, etc...) and those who make MULTIPLE balloon sculptures.
Now, SOME laymen will notice the difference between these two categories. No laymen will know a pinch twist from an ear twist from a loop twist from anything.
So therefore, because I make multiple balloon sculptures and Paddy makes multiple balloon sculptures people will see our work as being very similar.
This explains my car example.

My Cadillac is the same as Paddy's Cadillac IN THE EYES OF THE BUYER.
But mine is cheaper. SOLD.


Also, your statement about how if i charged 20 bucks to do a show, people paid and were happy. They are NOT going to think oh well lets hire the more expensive person next time.
Your thoughts on that show your inexperience with the real world performing.
Why ruin a good thing?
People are happy with what they got why change it? Why risk it?
Lesson #1: This is how referrals happen.


And out of this entire debate I have yet to say that Paddy shouldn't charge the 25 bucks extra for an event. All that I have asked is "Why?" I have yet to receive a legitimate answer as to why 25.00 over any other entertainer.

Before everyone rants and raves about underbidding, just keep in mind there is such thing as overbidding.

Dylan

bookmagicnow wrote:


No there is NO SDUCH thing as "overbidding!" That is the end of that. The why I charge more is very simple. People "know" that quality costs more. Therefore the thought is in their head that if it is more expensive, the quality is higher.

To continue with the automobile example; what is the diffence between a Ford and a Lincoln? The ONLY difference is the nameplate and the higher price for a Lincoln. The engines are made in the same plant, the body panels are formed in the same plant, they are like fraternal twins. But people buy the lincoln because it gives them the feeling of higher quality. you price yourself as a Ford and I will price myself as a Lincoln and we wiull both be happy. the difference is that I will work a lot less to make the same money. Or another way is that we will both work the same, but my bank account will be larger. Either way I'm happy.

True story that just happened. I worked a trade show for fairs and festivals. I had my booth and a direct competitor was set up just down the aisle about 4 booths. we both did our thing and the entertainment directors asked my price and I told them $500 with a 2 day minimum if I could take tips, higher if no tipping. The other was a husband and wife team the directors asked tehir pricing and they said $450 a day but if the event is 3 days or longer it is $350 a day. I walked out of the show with 4 signed contracts and 3 more that have to talk to the whole board before they can approve me. The other guy got ONE SHOW. Why, the things I heard the directors say as they walked by in the aisle was "if they are that cheap how can they be any good." Remember perception sells, not reality.

Paddy

"I suggest you know who you are talking about before you start talking. Just because my views are different then yours does not mean that I am not experienced in this field. You are new here so I can understand but you do seem a bit childish and closed minded. Judging from the fact that you have stated that you make mostly one balloon models I am willing to assume you are still a bit new to balloons. If so your price is completely reasonable but as you get better it would be a dumb move not to consider your self worth more than you started out as. "

I don't see why I even bothered responding to your post. You clearly did not take time to read through and understand my post.
Ok lets see what we got here.
"you are new here" - nah new account. I've been at penguin since 2002 but because of some of the past moderators here this is my new account. don't worry those moderators aren't here anymore.

"judging from the fact that you have stated that you make mostly one balloon models" - hmmmm where did i say that? The word multiple means more than one.... Here a picture is worth a thousand words.





And now for Paddy ... You know for a while I have been questioning why I am responding to this post. You are obviously just as arrogant as I am so we both know that nothing will come from this.
I have a feeling I have been performing a little bit longer than you have. If the 25 extra is working for you now thats great but just watch out in the long run when they find others that are just as good without the ego trip. Good luck with all your future endeavors.

Thanks!