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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:16 pm 
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I'm definitely not jealous of his success, I'm tired of him trying to make himself look like God with the camera. His stooges are obvious, and I know what you mean about his effects being stage magic, therefore needing assistants. Then why doesn't he stay to the stage instead of trying to be a street magician. His camera editing is obvious, there are even flashes, like wire flashing in one of his levitations, there are evidence everywhere. Lance Burton comes up with close-up effects for Angel, not floating from building to building. Being here, we should all be magicians, so it's kinda sad you believe this stuff, I mean laymen, they don't know better, but come on guys, open your eyes.

And again, nobody is jealous of his success, Blaine is successful, why don't I bash him?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Blain, Copperfield have used assistants or actors or stooges or camera stuff. Why does eveyone have the itch to pick on Criss? Armchair anaylsis on what they think people want to see on a weekley tv show!

The truth is ---Criss is doing what people want to see and if he followed the advice of most here---his show wouldn't last 3 weeks. The 'proof is in the puddin'.

Don't you people realize that as soon as you stick any camera in someone's face they stop acting natural!? You are a stooge as soon as the camera is in your face, if you really want to split hairs.

What isn't a gimmick or fake is the 'fact' Criss was and is successful at what he is doing--can anyone here compete? Of course not.

The best anyone here can do to bring Criss down is pound out their venom anonymously with their keyboards on an internet forum.

The guy is good just accept it and reap the benefits from the overflow and then do something you feel is original or 'better' and get on with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:20 am 
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Blaine only used camera editing for his levitation and that was only to protect the secret. The reactions were real, and he really did do the Balducci. The only time I think he used a stooge was when he did the teeth trick (and my theory for that is that he did it to compete with Angel's overuse of camera editing and stooges, just a theory). Anyways, Angel on the other hand uses camera editing and stooges for half his tricks (and probably more). I'd like him if he'd do real tricks, like his levitation, it's a great effect and I give him credit for coming up with it, why doesn't he just stick with effects like those?

Criss is doing what the people want to see? People want to see camera editing and actors? Well yeah they do, when they're watching movies. When they are watching a magic special, they want to see real magic, Angel lies to them and make them believe they are seeing real illsuions, that's why he is doing well.

Just because a person acts a little differently doesn't mean he/she is a stooge, that doesn't even make sense, how would they be in on the effect? :roll:

Like I said before I'm not jealous of his success, if I were, then why am I a Blaine fan, he's even more succesful. I'm only writing this stuff because people like you believe everything Angel does and even when you admit his use of camera tricks and stooges, you still support him.

He is doing better than me, in terms of money and fame, I don't care for either. I'm happy with what I'm doing right now, studying and performing REAL illusions for REAL spectators who enjoy it. That's what magic is about, not being top dog on TV by using camera editing and stooges, that's not magic, if you like to watch that, watch a movie.

My simple Ambitious Card Routine is better than his camera tricks and paid actors anyday, it's simple, it's close-up, and it's a REAL illusion.

I don't mean offense to any Angel fan, I'm just speaking my view.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:41 am 
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oztheozzie

There is no 'real' line as to where it becomes too much or too little in terms of 'stooges' or 'actors'. It is a personal opinion, but judging by the 'venom' that people are spewing against Criss Angel it becomes obvious that there is more to it then just plain ordinary criticism or point of view.

I personally don't think that his use of 'stooges' is at the level most people are claiming (he does use assistants or actors) but nowhere near what people are claiming. What I mean by 'stooge' in front of the camera is that if people are going to split hairs over everything Criss does then let us be consistent.

People act different in front of a Camera then they do off camera. PEOPLE even 'non stooges' ACT in front of the lense. There reactions are contrived or can be enhanced.

Most people don't realize that sometimes it isn't a one shot affair even with Blain. Criss obvously doens't always do a one shot thing and I am sure people react differently if more then one take is done and they won't seem as natural eventhough they are genuine.

I saw Criss Angel in New York, you can see unedited Cell PHONE recordings of the event, he did a great escape from the Crate eventhough you see him plain as day go into the crate. IF THIS WAS shown on MINDFREAK everyone would be claiming he used stooges, and there must have been some quick edits.

I actaully had people tell me this not knowing I was at the event. :shock:

I also saw him in Vegas up close. I know he can pull off the dollar bill torn effect, as well as other things that people are claiming he has to use an edit for. That is a load of b.s and disinfo.

What happens with disinfo is that it gets picked up and people keep repeating it. The guy can do some very amazing things.

What are people going to say when he was in Times Sqaure>? That the whole audience was fake as well as the police, as well as Fox T.V??

What are people going to say that the cell phone recordings and digital personal cam's that are uploaded on the net (youtube) is part of this conspiracy?

Are people now claiming that Criss Angel is at over 100 stooges and All of them are Quiet about it??

That Magic CAstle awarding him Magician of the year is also part of this conspiracy in magic??

Give the guy a break. He is astounding in person and I can't help but see some real hypocrisy in people accusing him. Again Copperfield, Blain they all did stuff. No-one should claim to speak and judge where the lines are drawn, just personal opinions. But to see the level of hatred, and I mean hatred toward Criss Angel --I think is dismal.

People criticize him for speaking about Blain (yet blain originally went after him and challenged him)

Yet people fail to realize that they are doing the same crap when they themselves go after Criss with hatred that makes people sick...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:08 am 
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CameraEdit wrote:
People criticize him for speaking about Blain (yet blain originally went after him and challenged him)

I still have yet to see a source of this claim other than from Criss himself. Until then, I still say it's a pathetic attempt by Criss to generate hype using Blaine's name.

You keep bringing up that crate stunt that you witnessed as an example of most of Angel's stuff being legit. It doesn't prove anything against what critics are saying. Even though this (stage type) effect was perfomed out on the street in public, it was still a tightly controlled situation, much like an actual STAGE. Why couldn't you get closer to the action for filming?

I don't even think people are saying stooges or camera edits were used for that particular stunt. That said, you simply cannot deny the overload of stooges and fake audience members he uses for a substantial portion of his tricks. It's plain as day, and what makes it worse is most of these people are really bad actors.

Watch David Blaine's "Steet Magic" or "Magic Man" specials. The people he performs for are REAL. Their reactions are REAL. He approaches REAL people on the street, not a sparse group of mostly bad actors in a the middle of a park field or back lot somewhere. I mean come on! Let's look at the effect he did where he went through the glass window. You can't tell me nearly EVERYONE involved was not a stooge. From the guy who was in the office to the people who held up the news paper. Yet he tries to pass this stuff off as the real deal. Lame... that's the only word I can come up with...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:30 am 
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Skyrissian

First of all--Blain said this on the Radio--Criss does mention this. No one was contesting it at the time. It is more then likely that Criss in fact is the one telling the truth since a lot of people heard the radio program, whether or not links are available.


Quote:
You keep bringing up that crate stunt that you witnessed as an example of most of Angel's stuff being legit. It doesn't prove anything against what critics are saying. Even though this (stage type) effect was perfomed out on the street in public, it was still a tightly controlled situation, much like an actual STAGE. Why couldn't you get closer to the action for filming?


You can't get closer since the crowds are huge and its for security reasons. Unless of course you think that some of the Police force and Fox Tv who were very close was also in on this 'conspiracy' of making Criss Angel into a great magician.

Secondly the crate Does PROVE WHAT I am saying since---Camera's could Zoom right in Close

On Mindfreak Criss does do demonstartions before Crowds in controlled sitautions and uncontrolled. The controlled is the illusion when the Girl Vanished at Freemont.

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Watch David Blaine's "Steet Magic" or "Magic Man" specials. The people he performs for are REAL. Their reactions are REAL.


Now we are judging 'real' by what see and how we think people should react? If we are consistent then let us keep splitting hairs, you weren't there neither was I. IF we take that argument to its fullest conclusion then we don't really know. Since you or I weren't there.

Now keep in mind that isn't my personal point of view I am just showing that this is the conclusion if people are really going to be fair.
Another thing to remember is that PEOPLE DON'T act natural before the Camera I don't care what anyone says. Amateurs act very controlled and they do enhance their reactions.
I like what Blain did. I liked the art, and the inovation. But that isnt' the standard by which we judge Criss Angel.


Now here are the questions.

#1. This vast conspiracy of 'stooges' that Angel must have. How come no-one has come forward yet? I mean if he has used that many stooges I would think it would be hard for them to keep quiet.

#2. Is Magic CAstle now in on this conspiracy? Angel won the Merlin Award times, is all of this now part of some 'political' plot to make him number #1? Keep in mind NO MAGICIAN HAS ever won awards like this.

#3. So are people like Banachek are now lying on Camera? A man who over the years has proven psychics to be fraud's is himself lying? He says there is NO GIMMICK in the POOL when Criss Angel does his walking on water routine, that is why people can be swimming around him.

IS Banachek now lying and part of this vast plot?

Is he now 'on in this'? So we have the Awards the acclaim, and now we have some of the biggest names in magic and mentalism part of this plot as well??

#4. So Criss is waisting all this money on a highly technical team (AND I MEAN HIGHLY TECHNICAL) just so he can get away with Camera Edits and Stooges????

Now again I will repeat, yes he has used assistants, yes he has used angles on the camera, but he isn't using Camera Tricks and Stooges at the level people are claiming.

Some of his tricks obvioulsy his crew has set up the scene, but there is an audience really watching. They are reacting in real.

The voodoo doll trick you mentioned can be performed out on the street and he has done it before. It can be done. So don't jump the gun on the guy.

The truth is half the people here and more here have NO CLUE as to how he is doing his stuff. This makes people angry and they lash out and go after the excuse that feels most easy for their minds to feel comfortable with.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
First of all--Blain said this on the Radio--Criss does mention this. No one was contesting it at the time. It is more then likely that Criss in fact is the one telling the truth since a lot of people heard the radio program, whether or not links are available.


Well first of all, spell the man's name right, it's Blaine, not Blain, give some respect, I don't spell Angel A-N-G-L-E. Second, like that other guy already said, there is no proof Blaine had ever denounce Angel. Especially since he went to see and supported Angel on one of stunts. Angel on the other hand had publicly denounced and challenged Blaine. What's wrong with that, well first of all magic is not a competition. Second, if it wasn't for Blaine paving the way, Angel wouldn't be where he's at.

Quote:
You can't get closer since the crowds are huge and its for security reasons. Unless of course you think that some of the Police force and Fox Tv who were very close was also in on this 'conspiracy' of making Criss Angel into a great magician.


I belive there was no stooges or camera editing for that, it's a stage act, Houdini have been doing stuff like this 100 years ago. But why doesn't he just stick with stuff like this, I've already mentioned I'm impressed with his levitation, why does he have to be bigger and better by cheating? Like I said before, he's a stage magician trying to be a street magician, that's a stage act, leave it for the stage.

Quote:
Now we are judging 'real' by what see and how we think people should react? If we are consistent then let us keep splitting hairs, you weren't there neither was I. IF we take that argument to its fullest conclusion then we don't really know. Since you or I weren't there.

Now keep in mind that isn't my personal point of view I am just showing that this is the conclusion if people are really going to be fair.
Another thing to remember is that PEOPLE DON'T act natural before the Camera I don't care what anyone says. Amateurs act very controlled and they do enhance their reactions.
I like what Blain did. I liked the art, and the inovation. But that isnt' the standard by which we judge Criss Angel.


I agree people don't act as natural infront of the cameras, their reactions may be enhanced, but their reactions can be lowered also. Not everybody is comfortable in front of the camera, some people may actually react less in front of it. If you want to talk about fake reactions, how bout Angel, at the end of one of his specials he had the whole crowd yell out "Mindfreak!", don't tell me they all just figured they should do it all at once. It was totally fake and was only to make Angel look good.

Quote:
#1. This vast conspiracy of 'stooges' that Angel must have. How come no-one has come forward yet? I mean if he has used that many stooges I would think it would be hard for them to keep quiet.


One word, money. And who knows someone may have already come up and said something, how many people will believe him/her, how big could he/she make it? Could he/she get on TV or the News? No, they couldn't especially since Angel's not that big anyways. Oh yeah, and again, MONEY.

Quote:
#3. So are people like Banachek are now lying on Camera? A man who over the years has proven psychics to be fraud's is himself lying? He says there is NO GIMMICK in the POOL when Criss Angel does his walking on water routine, that is why people can be swimming around him.


Haven't you read the other thread? The Asian girl swimming in the pool was a stooge, and the others were likely stooges too.

Quote:
Now again I will repeat, yes he has used assistants, yes he has used angles on the camera, but he isn't using Camera Tricks and Stooges at the level people are claiming.


Yes I admit, he does not use them as much as some people claim, but his most talked about effects are the edited ones with the stooges. The ones that aren't are hardly talked about. And he still overuse them. Blaine used camera editing on one of his effects, and stooges for one other one. The reactions were real for the levitation, and the tooth trick was likely only there to compete with Angel's camera tricks and stooges. That's about 1.5% of the effects Blaine showed on TV, Angel probably cheated for at least 40% (and that's being nice) of his effects, probably more.

Quote:
Some of his tricks obvioulsy his crew has set up the scene, but there is an audience really watching. They are reacting in real.


Now you're just contradicting yourself, they are reacting real when they're in front of the camera? That's not what you said about Blaine's spectators. And like i said before, those are stage acts, keep them to the stage, don't try to be someone you're not.

Quote:
The truth is half the people here and more here have NO CLUE as to how he is doing his stuff. This makes people angry and they lash out and go after the excuse that feels most easy for their minds to feel comfortable with.


People like me "lash out" because we know he's cheating to make himself look like God, he is disrespectful to the art of magic, and he denounces and challeges Blaine even though he should be thanking him.

-Oztheozzie


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:20 pm 
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heh heh.. all this going back and forth is starting to amuse me. I just thought of another totally fake Angel stunt. His buried alive effect. How ridiculous was that!? Even the goddamn RAIN was fake on that one!!! I was going to start a whole other thread for this, but I'm too lazy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:12 am 
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oztheozzie

Quote:
Well first of all, spell the man's name right, it's Blaine, not Blain


Due to the fact that my friend and work associate has the same name, except spelled Blain you will have to excuse me. Its more habit then 'lack of respect' when typing fast. I type the associates name far more then David Blaine the magician. Good point though.


Quote:
Angel on the other hand had publicly denounced and challenged Blaine. What's wrong with that, well first of all magic is not a competition. Second, if it wasn't for Blaine paving the way, Angel wouldn't be where he's at.


Your assuming Angel issued the challenge first. Angel says this was done by Blaie first. So we are just picking who to believe. It's moot at this point.

Quote:
If you want to talk about fake reactions, how bout Angel, at the end of one of his specials he had the whole crowd yell out "Mindfreak!", don't tell me they all just figured they should do it all at once. It was totally fake and was only to make Angel look good.


Nah, that is just splitting hairs. That is purely for fun and more for the tv show itself.

Quote:
One word, money. And who knows someone may have already come up and said something, how many people will believe him/her, how big could he/she make it? Could he/she get on TV or the News? No, they couldn't especially since Angel's not that big anyways. Oh yeah, and again, MONEY.


So I assume you believe Criss is now paying out large amounts of money to shut people up? He must be a very poor man, if on the one hand he has the amount of stooges that your saying he is using and paying out that much money to each stooge.

That is a lot of money alright! Right out of Criss's pocket. Not very wise in my books. And probably not the case at all.

Quote:
Haven't you read the other thread? The Asian girl swimming in the pool was a stooge, and the others were likely stooges too.


A stooge? How about a fan? Do you mean to tell me that if I see the same fans' for example at the New York Yankee's game travel to Boston that their stooges??

She couldn't have asked to see more? OR she might have been asked to see more. How is that taking away from her reactions? The truth is it doesn't.


Quote:
Now you're just contradicting yourself, they are reacting real when they're in front of the camera? That's not what you said about Blaine's spectators. And like I said before, those are stage acts, keep them to the stage, don't try to be someone you're not.


No, I was respoding to the 'slitting hairs' mentality here. If we can get right down to the technical nitty gritty, then even the fact someone is appearing before a camera makes them a 'stooge'.

I was using the attitude of most here to show that this thinking would eventually lead to that conclusion.

Yes the audience is reacting 'real' as possible given being filmed.
Keep in mind people are screaming 'stooge' at every twist and turn, I was just showing where it eventually leads.

Its a very technical interpetation and one that I don't subscribe to. Since then no audience would be 'real'.

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People like me "lash out" because we know he's cheating to make himself look like God, he is disrespectful to the art of magic, and he denounces and challeges Blaine even though he should be thanking him.


Houdini was more of an influence upon Criss Angel then Blaine.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:24 am 
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oztheozzie

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If you want to talk about fake reactions, how bout Angel, at the end of one of his specials he had the whole crowd yell out "Mindfreak!", don't tell me they all just figured they should do it all at once. It was totally fake and was only to make Angel look good.


I wanted to mention this point again.
Banachek has posted on another forum on the numbers on mindfreak

Banachek
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... forum=12&7
Quote:
Some numbers for folks:
We had 2.3 million vewiers a 34 percent increase over last seasons premier.

We had a 1.8 overall average. If you break a 1.5 it is considered a major hit.

MindFreak was the number one non sport cable show. And broke all records for A&E. In one of the repeats last week we also broke the magic number 1.
ALso recieved the following email from A&E:

Mindfreak was the # 1 one show on all of cable in the 25 - 54 demo and the # 2 show in the 18 - 49 demo,and from 10:30 - 11:00, Mindfreak was the # 1 show on all of cable in both the 25 - 54 and 18 - 49 demos, with over 2,000,000 viewers. Doubled its lead in



Now, it can be seen that the audience reaction you saw as 'fake' might be closer to 'real' if we look at those numbers!

Also keep in mind this isn't 'huge' numbers by network standards, but huge numbers by A&E standards.

Criss is doing something right. And people are more interested in seeing what he is doing then people realize. It also proves that he has many fans and that his show is growing.

How many tv shows did Blaine actually do?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:46 am 
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Seems as though we have a real "Criss worshiper" here. I am still wondering why this Cameraedit is going to great lengths to try and prove everyone else wrong? Even though it is obvious he has no real affiliation with Angel. You're wasting your time trying to convince others they are wrong, it is TV and it is far too easy to make assumptions either way.

As far as Mindfreak being #1 in the ratings, that means nothing. It actually means that almost everything else on at that time is usually complete crap, and Mindfreak is the only thing even remotely exciting on. That is why I tune in sometimes. It is more "tolerable crap." Of course we know that someone like Banachek would never lie about ratings, or anything regarding Mindfreak. It is not like he is a "paid consultant" right? What he says is also gospel.

Criss is very smart about one thing, hiring some of the top/most famous consultants in magic. That way they won't bash his show, so as long as they stay on the payroll...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:03 pm 
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If you watch the clips on the levitation (sorry if someone else mentioned this already I haven't read through the whole forumn)

At one point they show his legs crossed in the air, though later they show the entire levitation in a sped up version and his legs never cross. They also show a man looking up at him and walking backwards with him but then later they show another shot of the same area and the man isn't there but instead there's a group of like five people jumping up and down in the corner. It looked so shotty, just ugh, too much. The walk on water was quite nice though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:09 pm 
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If you watch the clips on the levitation (sorry if someone else mentioned this already I haven't read through the whole forumn)

At one point they show his legs crossed in the air, though later they show the entire levitation in a sped up version and his legs never cross. They also show a man looking up at him and walking backwards with him but then later they show another shot of the same area and the man isn't there but instead there's a group of like five people jumping up and down in the corner. It looked so shotty, just ugh, too much. The walk on water was quite nice though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:13 pm 
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Seems as though we have a real "Criss worshiper" here.


Why because I mention things in the positive, against *many* negative comments? That consitutes worship in your mind?

Quote:
I am still wondering why this Cameraedit is going to great lengths to try and prove everyone else wrong? Even though it is obvious he has no real affiliation with Angel. You're wasting your time trying to convince others they are wrong, it is TV and it is far too easy to make assumptions either way.


Don't you think you should take your own advice on 'assumptions'?

Quote:
As far as Mindfreak being #1 in the ratings, that means nothing.


I suppose truth means nothing to you?

Quote:
It actually means that almost everything else on at that time is usually complete crap, and Mindfreak is the only thing even remotely exciting on. That is why I tune in sometimes. It is more "tolerable crap."


Oh come on. Everything is crap at that time? So people have no choice? This is ridiculous, anyone who has worked in television would know in an instant what your saying is total crap not the shows on at a certain time.

Its like saying people have nothing better to do with their times that they watch a crappy show when everything else is crappy!

If that is your view of people in general then so be it. I tend to give people more credit then that and assume if there was nothing to watch they would have something better to do with their lives then sit in front of the tv.

Quote:
Of course we know that someone like Banachek would never lie about ratings, or anything regarding Mindfreak. It is not like he is a "paid consultant" right? What he says is also gospel.


So your now accusing him of lying? I don't understand.

Quote:
Criss is very smart about one thing, hiring some of the top/most famous consultants in magic. That way they won't bash his show, so as long as they stay on the payroll...


Yet most people here are saying is that he is using these consultants only to get away with tv magic! Seems like a waiste of money.

One more thing. I respond to the crap here because I saw him live twice and I know how impressed the lay people as well as the magicians were.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:36 pm 
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Like I said in the "Angel is not about Camera Tricks" thread, I know this arguement will not go anywhere if we keep going back and forth, so I will probably not continue this with this argument unless if I have to. This is most likely my last post regarding Angel's camera tricks or stooges.

Quote:
Quote:
As far as Mindfreak being #1 in the ratings, that means nothing.


I suppose truth means nothing to you?


I think what he meant is that his ratings mean nothing when we're talking about his camera editing and stooges. It doesn't becasue these people are only watching because they think they're watching miracles, and of course, they're wrong. But they don't know, that's the reason why they watch. As far as this arguement goes, his ratings don't matter.

Quote:
Yet most people here are saying is that he is using these consultants only to get away with tv magic! Seems like a waiste of money.

One more thing. I respond to the crap here because I saw him live twice and I know how impressed the lay people as well as the magicians were.


It's not a waste of money if you become famous and have all these ratings that give you more than enough money to pay for it. Of course, I'm not accusing Banachek of anything, I highly respect the man.

You saw him perform live, neither performances were on TV. He could have used a stooge and you wouldn't know. Both effects were stage effects, which further proves he is a stage magician trying to be a street magician. And when it comes to the stage, there so many that are miles ahead of him.

Again, I don't think I will participate in this disscussion anymore.

Best to all of you.

-Oztheozzie

P.S. read my last post in the "Angel is not about Camera Tricks" thread, hope we understand where I'm coming from.


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