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 Post subject: Hard Proof Criss uses stooges, AND he broke the golden rule
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Hard Proof Criss uses stooges, further more he broke the golden rule of magic. The unauthorized use of another magicians effect. Andre Kole (http://www.andrekole.org/) actually created the most convincing method of walking on water ever seen. Criss contacted him wanting to use this effect and Andre declined his request wanting to keep this exclusive to his show (I dont blaim him). Criss went against his wishes and did this any way. There is a whole letter and Andre allowed Go Magic Go to release bits and pieces of this letter. The letter is right at the start of the podcast if you dont want to listen to the whole thing. In it Andre states that he did not let Criss use his effect and that Criss used it against his wishes not to. He goes on to say that David Blaine also wanted to use this effect for the fish tank bubble thing but he also told him no, david respected his wishes and Criss did not. If you guys would like to listen to the letter being read at go magic go here is the link. It was on the newest episode 45. I lost all respect for Criss and this is just low. Have a listen.

http://www.gomagicgo.com/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:05 pm 
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ahha wow. but yea I knew andre kole had done this b4 criss. I knew he had created the effect as well. shame on criss.... I guess but at the same time, criss is a young "badass" as some would look at him so I can understand his behavior lol


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:01 pm 
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boo [edited] hoo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:13 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Wow, good job finding this out Openwire, and I thought you were an Angel fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Haha, I thought I was too until I heard this. This is low, Im not going to defend a guy with these kind of morals.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:53 pm 
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born to perform.

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Isn't that illegal, or did Andre not copyright his effect.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:41 pm 
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Wait for the respone :wink:

I think it is important to get 2 sides of a story before you judge.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:11 pm 
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born to perform.

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Illegal or not, this is magic we're talking about. Even if Criss Angel did do it illegally on his show, and then Kole wanted to take him to court, it would probably be extremely difficult to prove that Criss used the exact same method. I don't think Kole would stand a chance against Angel in court over it sadly. Magic does need more legal protection I guess. That would also help with people exposing it on tv sometimes.

My question is this though:
If this illusion isn't supposed to be copied by anyone then why does anyone else know how its done? Walking on water can only be so good, so its not really a trick you could call your own in my opinion. But I don't know the trick so I'm talking all theory here. I don't get why Kole would tell anyone how its done if he doesn't want anyone else (Criss Angel included) to do it, and if they or someone else figured it out and told them then its not good enough to really be called Kole's trick. Maybe thats what Criss thought too, probably not though, he probably just wanted to walk on water on his show and that was that, legally or illegally, right or wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:32 pm 
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Im pretty sure they mentioned in the podcast that Kole had made a written document that any one who tried to perform his effects with out his consent would be sued for $500,000. That was actually a direct quote they read from him. Angel probably figured, Hey its not the most expensive trick I ever paid for why not. But Im pretty sure Kole can do some thing about this considering he took step to protect him self from some thing like this happening.

I understand where you are coming from but if that was the case Angel shouldnt have ever asked Kole for permission to start with. He should have just went out and did it. Angel asking kole for permission clearly shows that he was aware that we was not allowed to do this trick and further more in the letter Kole sent back to Angel he outlined that any attempt to do the trick would result in being sued for $500,000. Like I said when you are making 6 million a year or whatever Criss makes I doubt he really cares. I highly doubt 500,000 is a big deal to Criss. By doing that effect on TV he just made 3 mil alone.

With all legal issues aside it still proves that Angel uses stooges who just act like they dont know whats going on to make his magic stronger. Stooges are fine but seriously where do you draw the line? I want to see more card magic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:59 pm 
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This is a *legal* issue the letter was a lawyers letter.
We have yet to hear the response.

What if Criss Angel never used Andre Kole's method?
He might have pursued him, but maybe in the end this wasn't the method used.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:02 am 
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I love how everyone jumps on Criss for using this effect. First, you haven't heard his side of the story. Second, there's no guarantee that Criss used the same method. I know 30 ways to get a card to the top of the deck, see my point. Third, you can't copyright a trick. You can't. It's that simple. Criss can legally do any trick he wants on tv. Also, get off the stooge thing. We all use stooges. I use stooges. Any other magician that is willing put pocket a card on someone is your stooge. Besides, a stooge is no different than a DL, it's a way too accomplish a trick. If you want to complain about someone using stooges, go after Copperfield. He uses them, but no one complains. All stage magicians use stooges at one point or another, so why don't any of you complain about them. Even in the classic Cups and Balls painting, there's a stooge that's stealing the purse of a spectator. That's a stooge, because they act impressed by the magic, but are really causing the real magic to happen. Complain about that. Besides, no one has actually proven to me that he uses stooges. I have yet to see hard proof. No stop complaining because you don't know how something works. That's the animosity towards Criss. People don't know how something works, so camera tricks and stooges are the first things that people think. It's really annoying when all I see on this forum now is people complaining that he used stooges. Now, I'm not naive enough to say he doesn't use them. I know he does because I know many of the effects he uses. The back bend and street levitation from season one, for instance, but that doesn't mean that that's his only method of doing magic. He's won the AMA Magician of the Year how many times now? He obviously has skill and anyone that argues that obviously hasn't been keeping up with him.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:52 am 
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exodus

Very well said.

Just to add about 'stooges/actors'. I have heard people (not here as much) but in other places and on other magic forums(a well known magician even) saying that Criss Angel used Stooges for the audience in the Elephant illusion.

*IF* people knew how to dig things up they might find some interesting things.

For example:

Here on a LAS VEGAS BLOG --before the Elephant Illusion.
http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/2006/03/cr ... hant_d.php

Quote:
Last weekend outside Aladdin, magician Criss Angel escaped from chains and a sealed container in the nick of time before a stunt car filled with explosives would've made him Flat Angel.

Tomorrow afternoon, March 31, Criss performs another live stunt in Aladdin's lobby right outside the Theatre for the Performing Arts. And this time he's bringing an elephant, which he plans to make disappear. He could always just show up without the elephant and say it disappeared before anyone could see, tada! But somehow we don't think that would be too magical.

Both stunts will be part of the "Mindfreak" television series on A&E. The public is invited.


So now I assume the *PUBLIC* are all now stooges!
the 'magician' who said the audience was stooges would look really silly if he realized that it was a publicly advertised event with a 'public invite'?
I will leave him nameless since it isn't worth bringing it up. But he is well known, you would think he would know better.

Secondly and very interestingly here is a blog by someone who actually appeared on MINDFREAK

http://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2006/05 ... xperience/

Criss Angel

Quote:
Criss Angel, for those who don’t know, is an illusionist. He performs magic stunts and illusions in the same vein as David Blain. I asked them why they were doing a show on a haunted hotel and was told this episode was going to be called “Celebrity Seance” and they were going back to the Amargosa Hotel next week with Criss himself and some celebrities to see if they could do a seance in the hotel. They told us our 6 hours of filming would be distilled down to probably 10 minutes. Bummer! There’s no way they will be able to convey all that happened to us out there in such a short time. But I didn’t go for fame… I went to see if I could do it and to help the living and deceased, as my guides told me to expect. It’s going to be the 11th episode of the season, with an expected air date of late July or early August. I’ll be sure to announce it as soon as I know it’s going to be



NOW this is a *medium* who appeared on MINDFREAK, there is no doubt in my mind she is out to lunch on the talking to the dead stuff.

But it shows some interesting things. Namely that this show sounds interesting, especially since Criss doesn't believe in talking to the dead or psychics etc.

It also shows she isn't *Set up*.

I have seen Criss in different locations, this stooge thing is done to death on the guy.

Sometimes he has incorporated them, but the level isn't as high as everyone is assuming.

Only on rare occasions have I ever seen such venom directed toward someone.


As for Andre Kole look at the video on YOUTUBE and someone really tell me if that looks like anything like what Criss was doing. It didn't look impressive, the camera looked like it was a half a mile away, Andre kept still most of the time.

To be fair, Criss and his people have to respond. I think everyone is so quick to jump on anything Criss does it is ludicrous.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:15 am 
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Or the fact that kole said in his letter that Criss used stooges, that cant be proof by any means... Im not going on hear say or guessing and I could care less how the trick works. Did you actually listen to the podcast? Kole said in black and white on paper that the only way Criss did what he did with people in the pool is if he used stooges. Im not making this up or coming to my own conclusion here, I simply reposted what I HEARD read to me from Kole him self.

Maybe if I didnt hear that Criss went to the guy who came up with one of the best known versions of this effect I would be a little more open minded. I never thought any thing bad of him and I never thought he used stooges (like people say) or camera tricks until I heard that letter from Kole.

And you may know 30 ways to bring a card to the top of a deck but I dont think they are on the same page.... Walking on water... bringing a card to the top of the deck.... ok There can only be so many methods to do this and I doubt there are 30. So hey, if Criss responds to this claim fine, maybe Ill change my mind, so until then I heard what I heard.

And although not directed at me I never thought the elephant trick used a crowd of stooges or any thing else, all I care about at this point is a tiny pool that they told ‘A LOT’ of people about that ‘CRISS ANGEL’ was going to be there and then I seen like 20 people around/in a pool. Im not even going to go so far as to say every one of them was a stooge but I think the possibility that at least the girl swimming around his feet wasn’t 100% legit.

One last thing, I have personally never used a stooge (because I dont do stage shows) and I just havent done any thing that needs one yet. Honestly Im not 100% against using one every now and then, but seriously having your stooge give an interview like they have no idea whats going on is just wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:04 am 
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openwire

Yes I listened to the podcast. There are couple of things to keep in mind.

#1. Kole is saying this--about the stooges--
#2. Kole is saying the effect is his.

I am not saying Kole is incorrect. What I am saying is that we haven't even heard from Criss Angel's people or he himself on this. How can we judge>? IF it is legal isn't that up to a court of law to decide?

Another point to consider is that even if Criss and his people contacted Kole, does that mean that they decided to go with his effect after he said no? Was there something else?

We don't know as of yet.

As for stooges if people really looked hard enough you can meet some of the people online who actually were on Mindfreak.(think female in self vanish) :)
I am not going to start pointing where to look, I think I see people will jump on and off the bandwagon whatever the flavour of the month is to attack Criss Angel.
Like I have said, he has used actors but it isnt' at the level people are claiming.

Think about it, the link I provided showed a 'medium' who had all these strange coincidental occurences with MINDFREAK. Now if this person had said this on air what does this person become? Another stooge?
Granted the person believes in these things, but nonethless she was on it, she did the filming and worked with the people from the show.

She wrote her blog, and even though I don't subsribe to talking to the dead it was unusual her story. (if accurate of course)

Remember the spider (or snake) in the hat illusion? Some magician on this message board-whom I won't name, in a post said this was set up. That he had some sources who gave him video etc, etc.

Well well well, I saw that effect live very similar to the one that aired. People walking about camera's filming, now unless the person was in on it, which I doubt very much, it was a very good effect that has some 'magician's' telling me that the trick is impossible!
Same with the torn dollar bill, another magician on another forum said it was accompilshed by the edit. Like 'hello' some of us have seen some of this you know.

At the end of the day people will believe whatever they want. I just think this stooge thing is really too much.

Mindfreak is criticized for 'stooges' for him talking too much about his family, for the 'edits' for this and for that, the list literally goes on and on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:05 am 
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ok enough with the stooges talk...... stooge=assistant, just like in stage magic and every other form of magic, you need someone in on alot of effects and thats that. as far as using someone elses trick, how many times have you watched a magician and figured out his trick and used it, i k now ive done it many of times, and if you have than that makes you just like angel. your allowed to do whatever you want, and kole isnt allowed to stop people from performing magic, and than go on a podcast and reveal angels secrets, like using assistants. in my opinion kole looked like he was camera edited on his water walk. he looked fake and criss didnt. if you dont like criss angel than stop watching his show, all you are doing by criticizing him is getting more and more people to watch his show. ive gotten alot of people to start watching it by talking about the stuff he does and people want to see it first hand and are amazed at what he does, whether its fake or not alot of laymen dont know what they are watching, unless of course they have tivo and slow mo his tricks, which i think he needs to scramble his show so it cant be recorded. anyway just get off his back and watch something else if you dont like him, these forums are getting old and noone is going to win this argument about his stooges and camera tricks. but at the end of the day awards speak for them selves.


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