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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:35 am 
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Yeah, thats fine use stooges whatever. Have you ever stolen a LARGE effect? Been at a show that MAKE the magician who he is, you got the seat on the side and you figured out how he did the main secret that makes him money, so you went out and made a bigger better show and took his effect. I dont think so. The point is that Kole isnt some 2 bit magician doing magic on the side to make a little extra cash. This is the guys living. He makes a living doing magic and he wasnt even mean about the request to keep this effect exclusive to his show. He kindly asked for Criss not to do the effect same as he did with Blaine. It doesnt matter if any one can take any one else’s effects its a matter of moral and ethics. Youre dead on about the awards, Criss has some very big accomplishments and awards thus making him a role model to other magicians. Its in the code of ethics of the IBM which Both Criss and Kole are members of that you respect another magician by not taking their effects with out permission. I could care less what you have to say about stealing other peoples effects you arent a member of the IBM and neither am I. Some people on this forum are and Im sure they understand. Criss is a really talented guy no doubt about that and his magic is amazing, not to mention he has an entire team of the best magicians to help him with different effects, this just adds to the fact that what he did perhaps not legally wrong was morally wrong. He shouldnt have became a member of the IBM and accepted the code if he is going to break of their main 'rules' (I use this term lightly) of their society.

I have always liked Criss anfd stuck up for him, I enjoy his magic and thats why I like his show. I would really like to see him live and Im going to try to when I go to Vegas in the coming month on vacation. I would really like the members of mindfreak to come out and say "Ok, Kole said no but we came up with our own method that actually worked better." I wouldnt doubt this considering the people who Criss has on his team BUT at the same time I think Kole would know his own effect when he sees it. I dont think Kole just come out of left field and claimed that Criss used his effect if he didnt have some level of confidence that what he was seeing was REALLY similar to the same effect he does him self. So as I said before and I will say again I really hope the mindfreak team comes forward and has something to say about this whole thing. I would like to change my RECENTLY turned view on Criss back to what it was. I like the guy and his magic, but if its really true that he stole Koles trick I cant respect some one with those kind of morals. 1 brother of the IBM should not betray the other.

You are all saying all of this but I think you would all be just as mad if some one came to your show and stole you finale piece that you wanted to keep exclusive.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:50 am 
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Sorry if I'm misinformed, but I thought that the golden rule was that you're never supposed to reveal the secret?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:14 pm 
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http://media.libsyn.com/media/thetrapdo ... 051110.mp3

IF anyon listened to the older podcast where Banachek talks about the use of 'stooges' on Mindfreak.
He says --there isn't stooges, there maybe assistants as in when a magician gets someone out from the audience on stage

He says there is no 'editing' to help with the tricks. It is more to do with tv and the time alloted for each show--Which is only 22 minutes! Think about that.

He is saying that Criss is fooling even Magicians, which tells you the level he is at.

He says Criss isn't using CGI to achieve his effects.

The audience you are seeing react is real.

As for the Andre Kole thing again.

Let us wait and see what the response is. I have to agree with the above post by magicdjw, the Andre Kole effect looked *FAKE*.

Criss Angels effect didn't look fake, it looked more real.

So I would wait and see what the response is.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:39 pm 
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You still haven't proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Angel used the same method. Besides, Kole wasn't even the first to attempt this effect, he just got the most press for doing it in a church.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:39 pm 
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and even as far as using someone elses effect, what about levitating someone, or sawing a person in half those are effects that were introduced by someone and now used by almost all stage magicians, whos to say criss that criss got a no from kole and than devised his own method. well just have to wait and see if he comes out with a statement which i dont think he has to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
whos to say criss that criss got a no from kole and than devised his own method.


I think thats exactly what I said in my above post.

I think I should have entitled this post "Food for thought" I didnt post this thinking Hey I caught Criss I know he does this now! I posted it for those who either do or dont believe he uses stooges. This was more for others then for my self. I honestly could care less about Criss using Stooges if you look at the body of my first post you will see my main concern/focus here was the fact that Criss may have taken another magicians effect with out asking.

By golden rule, to be more clear I meant the golden rule of the IBM not magic as a whole. Of course its never to reveal the secret but in the IBMs code of conduct its clearly started that you should never use some one elses effects with out asking and GETTING their permission.

Magikrn I think youre completely missing the point Im tring to make here. You can learn those things on DVD's now and they are taught in magic schools. You cant learn to walk on water... Yet.

None of you can honestly justify what Criss has done, we all know its wrong. You can try to spin it any way you want by saying he created his own effect, his looked better it really doesnt matter. Criss gives credit to EVERY magician he has ever done a trick after. He did not give any credit to Andre after or before doing this trick, why because he was clearly denied the right to do it. If nothing else he was obviously inspired by Andre upon doing this trick or else he would have never wrote him the letter. In all fairness EVEN IF he did come up with this trick on his own, he should have gave him credit.

FPR THE FINAL TIME. IF THE MINDFREAK STAFF COMES OUT AND HAS SOME THING TO SAY ABOUT THIS I WILL COMPLETEL CHANGE MY MIND. AS FOR NOW IT APPEARS HE HAS STOLEN KOLES EFFECT. AND I DONT CARE ABOUT STOOGES, IM NOT TRYING TO PROVE HE DID USE THEM THAT WAS JUST FOR YOU GUYS.

Exodus with tribute to you, I agree Andre wasnt the first to do it and even if Criss didnt give credit to him directly I just wish he would have said some thing about the origins of the effect like he does with every other one. and if he did give credit I must have missed it. and i appologize if I did.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:19 pm 
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openwire

As you understand it, when was it that Andre Kole was approached by Criss Angel for this?

Also everyone was using the Cars video as an example of this when Criss Angel did this illusion. Can we safely say now that this is a very different thing?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:34 pm 
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I cant remember exactly Its in the podcast.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:34 pm 
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openwire

Okay, a couple of things have recently come to mind and a few things have been pointed out to me.

#1. Did not Penn & Teller devise a 'walking on water' that is not related to Andre Kole and was to be on their show Off the Deep End?

I dug up the press release by NBC --

Quote:
BURBANK, Calif. -- October 12, 2005 Rogue magicians and eight-time nominees and two-time Emmy Award winners Penn & Teller ("Penn & Teller Go Public," "Penn & Teller's Bulls***t") travel to the Caribbean to present amazing feats highlighted by making a submarine disappear in the first magic special ever performed entirely underwater. The two-hour NBC special titled, "Penn & Teller: Off the Deep End," will premiere Sunday, Nov. 13 (7-9 p.m. ET).



Quote:
In addition to the never-before attempted disappearing submarine illusion, highlights in the special include acts with hungry sharks, "psychic" dolphins, and the duo actually walking on water in a newly-devised super illusion.


Now it never made it to air due to Time Constraints and they were going to include the illusion as I understand it in their LIVE VEGAS show?

This is a different illusion I believe then the one that is performed by Kole.

I am wondering if this is the one that Criss is using?

#2. Rick Okasec walked on Water back in the 80's, the effect was done on a glass sheet as far as I know and not remotely similar to Criss Angel. But the idea as has been mentioned here previously was there, or the concept was the same.

I suppose this much is true. The Criss Angel effect took more from the Cars video then it did from Kole. (in terms of concept-not talking method)

#3. Why wasn't this brought up last year when Criss Angel performed his walk on water on the tv show Las Vegas??


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:44 pm 
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Does anyone else find it little odd that someone would join here under a username which actually sort of defeats the purpose they are trying to make, and have ALL their posts in this forum, and going out of their way to defend Angel? Sorry but I just find it a little odd, and very strange.

Especially when such a 'fake alias' proves no credibility, or confidence in their opinions. But we are supposed to take a faceless entity seriously? I seriously believe this debate is a huge waste of time, as either side is not going to budge. There is something like 25 other forums, PO's not included, yet everyone sits in here defending/bashing Criss Angel; and at great length.

It truly is a lost cause, as people are going to think what they think. You are not going to change the world, or anyone's opinion on Angel or Blaine.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:09 am 
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sirbrad

#1. The is a 'public forum'. If you find it odd that people post anonymously
on the internet then maybe you should re-examine what truly seems odd. I find it 'odd' that you think it 'odd' someone posts anonymously on the net.

#2. I have seen Criss Angel live, I have been silent for a long time and I have seen a rash of disinformation being sent around and repeated again and again and again and again. Think of this as a 'vent'.

#3. My name is also suggestive of a person who has worked with Camera's and Edits :wink: Which I have done and continue to do. I might know more about tv and film then you think.

#4. Who or What I am is not as important as 'who or what' we are discussing. The truth of what is doesn't change with what I am. Either what I am saying is wrong, or correct for the most part, whether I am David Blaine or the Queen of England.

Again I find it odd that you see a problem with a percieved notion of someone defending Criss Angel to 'great lengths' when there is so much negative comments and threads concerning him.

If you really must know to the lay person out there, it is becoming more and more embarrasing the reaction of magicians to Criss Angel and the ludicrous accusations.

To many lay people it looks almost like people 'crying' and 'moaning' about anything and everything. It isn't good for your industry, it isn't good for anyone.

What I see on Mindfreak is a show that is 22 minutes in length, and I see some people complaing about 'edits'. Does that not sound 'odd' to you?

It is a very difficult thing, to put on a tv show everyweek as Criss Angel is doing.

I am here to share my thoughts on what i see as an obvious bias against Angel, not to 'toot my own horn'.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:54 pm 
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What really burns me are young magicians posting on here claiming the we (magicians) owe allegiance to Criss Angel and/or David Blaine for bringing magic back to the people. (As if the magic was ever taken away). Also claiming they are a source of inspiration and should be respected and looked upon with awe.

I have never seen an Angel/Blaine television special. I have never seen more than snippets or clips of these guys online. I had not even heard of Angel before I made a visit to California this last November.

I owe them nothing and they have contributed nothing that is of any interest or use to me.

As for the walking on water effect; I am more inclined to believe Angel took/borrowed/gleaned/bought the trick than designed his own original handling. No one would know unless it was exposed and explained. (My personal opinion – I cannot comment on facts that I don’t know about).


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 Post subject: to openwire
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:21 am 
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Look I have read several of your posts,,, you seem to post about hearsay,, which would never be allowed in court. I would like to hear only your real experiences.

Here is my comment on magic,,, all these guys are good,, its entertainment.. and its all lying,,, Look,, when you palm a card are you not lying to your audience? Anyone over 8 years old knows the camera lies.
So all this ,,,stuff about what is right and not right in magic baffles me. The whole idea is to decieve,, use what you have to do that,, and never tell how its done. Its kindof like all is fair in love and war.

My take,, just enjoy and celebrate it all.
peace,


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:32 am 
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Hi ,,, sorry the last post was for OPENWIRE


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:36 pm 
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There is a difference between just flat out telling a lie. And trying to deceive some one for the art of entertainment.

Quote:
Look I have read several of your posts,,, you seem to post about hearsay,, which would never be allowed in court. I would like to hear only your real experiences.


and that makes no sense because I have never tried to prove any thing and never claimed nor suggested that Criss is a hieratic. I have actually never posted ANY THING bad about Criss. I wouldnt even consider any of this a bad post either. I posted this for other people and they attacked me so I defended my self. Read my posts again friend because your wrong.

Like I was saying if he uses whatever he has to his advantage and that includes camera editing and stooges then thats fine. But by means of camera editing he shouldnt claim EVERY SINGLE trick he does can be done in front of ANY live audience because its not true.

Like I said a million times before. I NEVER thought Criss used camera editing, again I dont know where you pulled this from but Im simply defending my self. Do a search on me and go back and read my posts again, instead of reading this one single thread and making such claims.

Again you obviously havent read every post and your coming to false conclusions simply by reading 1 or 2 posts in the middle of this thread. So go back and read. I could case less about camera editing and stooges all together. My main concern I have been addressing since the start was ethics in magic and the POSSIBILITY he stole another magicians effect with out permission. Because thats extremely wrong and disrespectful. And I completely agree with Wildheart.

What 'real' experiences would you like to hear about considering they have NOTHING to do with this thread at all. How I have stole other magicians effects and put them on national television?

This was taken from the Pen and Teller thread.
Quote:
here is my comments on magic,,, all these guys are good,, its entertainment.. and its all lying,,, Look,, when you palm a card are you not lying to your audience? Anyone over 8 years old knows the camera lies.
So all this ,,,stuff about what is right and not right in magic baffles me. The whole idea is to decieve,, use what you have to do that,, and never tell how its done. Its kindof like all is fair in love and war.

My take,, just enjoy and celebrate it all.
peace,


Way to hang out in the same section and copy and paste the same garbage over and over. Try taking the time to rewrite a more thought-out post.


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