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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:41 pm 
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HERES my take, it may be others as well.

since criss asked if he could use it, and was requested not to use it on tv, then he shouldnt have used it. Why ask if your just going to go around their back like that. It doesnt make sense. it makes him seem unprofessional and immoral to me.

blaine on the other hand requested its use and respected the wish of it not to be used, which is what angel should have done.

i will probably say more later.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:21 pm 
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David, the ethics should have taken over and Angel not performed Kole's effect, but the fact still remains that no one has proven too me that he did use Kole's method. I have no reason to believe that he didn't devise his own way of doing it, like he's done so many other times.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:59 pm 
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Openwire I agree with you on the stuff you were saying about Criss Angel. Im starting to think of cameraedit as the great defender of camera trickery now. All I hear cameraedit saying is Angel doesn't use camera tricks at the level people say, but I will acknowledge he probably has used them a few times. Cameraedit, please face the fact that only like one or two people agree with you and spare us of your page long responses saying the same things over and over. Im not trying to be rude or make you mad, but it gets old reading your long posts saying the same things again and again.

And people on here not understanding the difference in being an honest liar and a dishonest liar is getting very old too. If you don't understand the difference in a honest liar and a dishonest liar you don't need to learn another effect or work on another until you have thought about it until you completely understand it. The point of magic is not just to decieve, its too amaze people, to take them somewhere else where anything seems possible. People get lied to everyday. Thats just sad if you enjoy "lying" to people.

Sirbrad, I agree with you about cameraedit's name on here. A little wierd that you spend sooooo much time saying Angel isn't using camera tricks, but your name on here is, of all things, cameraedit???

Last, its a little off topic, but something does seem a little wrong with the elephant vanish trick. I don't know much about elephants, but I would think since they're so heavy that they wouldn't be able to walk silently. Moving one with equipment also wouldn't be silent, so I want to know how the elephant was moved in "silence" like that person said. Also, if elephants can walk silently, then the surrounding "spectators" wouldn't really be spectators. My guess is the elephant just walked off, which would make those people what, am stooges? But I don't know enough about elephants to know how that trick could have been done. It just seems to me that it involved stooges, but I DON'T know for sure.

The people in the pool were stooges though. There is no way to walk on water and have people in the water with you unless they're stooges. That is unless you can actually walk on water.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:07 pm 
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alot of agicains use stooges, not just angel. i use a stooge for the new SAW effect by sean fields. insted of sawing the string into my neck a use a spectators, it freaks out the other spectators more.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:14 pm 
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I understand that, using stooges is ok as long as you don't overuse it. Like for every effect you do, or in some cases, almost every effect you are known for. There is line between using stooges in some effects and using them in too many.

-oztheozzie


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:47 pm 
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When is someone going to prove that he's using stooges and a stolen method?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:44 pm 
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No one here can prove or disprove any thing at this point. All we can do is go off what we heard from the podcast. It would make things a little more interesting if Criss's team has some thing to say on the matter. I think we will have to wait 2 weeks before we know the answer from that magic podcast since they are going to be in LA, I believe for a magic convention, so its unlikely they will have time to make upcoming Thursdays podcast.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:50 pm 
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thecooltonto

The Elephant vanish was before a real live audience. I already mentioned on another thread this fact that the event had a PUBLIC INVITATION
Read the blog yourself.

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/2006/03/cr ... hant_d.php



Quote:
Tomorrow afternoon, March 31, Criss performs another live stunt in Aladdin's lobby right outside the Theatre for the Performing Arts. And this time he's bringing an elephant, which he plans to make disappear. He could always just show up without the elephant and say it disappeared before anyone could see, tada! But somehow we don't think that would be too magical.

Both stunts will be part of the "Mindfreak" television series on A&E. The public is invited.



You don't invite the public if your planning to use only stooges.

Interestingly there are people who commented on the blog about 'seeing Criss' live.

Listen to an interview with Banachek
http://media.libsyn.com/media/thetrapdo ... 051110.mp3

He says directly that Criss has used assistants but that the audience is not stooges, that Criss does NOT USE CGI, That he does NOT RELY on CameraEdits for his effects before LIVE PEOPLE.

He says that many magician's don't actually know how he is doing his stuff therefore accusations start to fly.

My take on all of this, Criss Angel is a master of Illusion. He is not the greatest magician with Card's but all around he is a very good one. But he is great in many different things, he reads people's nature really well and he does things that are very clever.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:37 pm 
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But David Copperfield is the ultimate master of illusion. haha


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:09 pm 
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he does'nt use as many stogges and camera tricks as all you poeple say. you guys just say that because you cant find out a way he did his tricks or illusions. so you just acuse him of useing them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:25 pm 
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Wake up. Simple logic proves otherwise, provided you are able to use it and are aware of it. I am not saying that Criss' tricks are created by the camera, but he does use it to make things a whole lot easier. Criss has not done even ONE thing that has remotely fooled me, and I actually like being fooled when a good magician is able to do so. Granted it does not happen often, simply due to the fact that I have been involved with magic for almost 30 years now.

But that is not the point here at all. What annoys me is the "jump-cuts" (camera editing) at almost every single crucial move that he would need to pull off to complete the trick live. The last I remember with the bill in mouth trick, and the card on the pool table. The camera conveniently was stopped, and restarted later at the EXACT time each effect would require that "special something" to be done.

Like I said before, if you are not seeing this or are aware of it; YOU are the one he is fooling. Not everyone else. Heck I don't mind being fooled the first time with good magic, but I feel a little insulted when someone has to stop the camera, and restart it every single time a sleight comes up. I also know this because I do some of the magic that Criss "attempts," and the jump-cut is so obvious it is pathetic. You can also tell when a jump-cut is coming, because Criss says that "the camera will not cutaway" only to have it do just that about a second later.

Perhaps he is trying to apply some type of psychological suggestion, but I think he is simply calling more attention to it. But to me it was plain as day, but maybe because I am looking for it. I don't care how much of a Criss worshiper some 13-year old is who is just starting magic, you can't argue simple facts and logic. Especially when some are very knowledgeable, and have spent a lot longer studying and performing this art than Criss has.

Some people assume that simply because he is on TV now, and has a couple of awards that he is the greatest thing ever. Not always true. Even Penn said on his podcast that neither him, nor Criss possess tremendous skill. But you don't have to in order to be a success. But this whole argument is simply based on Criss using the camera to help sell his effects, or perhaps cover up some things that he might be able to do. So in a sense it is not magic he is doing, it is still camera trickery.

I think this hurts magicians from an ethical point of view, and also makes their jobs more difficult to a degree. Thankfully though laymen have very short term memories when it comes to single effects, that is what can save us. It does not matter how high he sets the bar, camera trickery or not, no one here is going to float from building to building at any given moment. Frankly, neither is Criss. But that is all an illusion in itself...a "TV illusion."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:41 pm 
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sirbrad

Quote:
Even Penn said on his podcast that neither him, nor Criss possess tremendous skill. But you don't have to in order to be a success


Penn was talking about the 'sleight of hand' prowess of some of the greats, he was talking more of cards and stuff. It wasn't a blanket statetment and he wasn't refering to 'grand illusions' and other things. He was including himself, blaine and angel. The real 'finger flicking stuff' I think he mentioned.

Quote:
What annoys me is the "jump-cuts" (camera editing) at almost every single crucial move that he would need to pull off to complete the trick live. The last I remember with the bill in mouth trick, and the card on the pool table. The camera conveniently was stopped, and restarted later at the EXACT time each effect would require that "special something" to be done.


Same 'jump cut' thing happened last year on a few tricks, in a final episode he came back and showed the full version.

Just because it 'jumps' or appears to do so at crucial moments doesn't mean he is hiding something.

THE SHOW IS 22 MINUTES

maybe the real issue is you spent '30' years in magic ,but how many in a pressure Budget.
restricted TV program such as Criss?


22 minutes isn't a long time to get everything correct.

At any rate this isn't the quantity of things but the quality. You can spend a hundred years at something and still be mislead.
Heck a well known magician claimed the Elephant illusion was done with a bunch of stooges!

If what your saying is true then Banachek is a liar when he specifically challenged the notion of Camera Edits and Stooges.

Quote:
I don't care how much of a Criss worshiper some 13-year old is who is just starting magic, you can't argue simple facts and logic. Especially when some are very knowledgeable, and have spent a lot longer studying and performing this art than Criss has.


If the contention is that only 13 year olds think Criss is good then you are ignoring other long time magicians who have high praise for Criss Angel. Your statment is ludicrous.

Quote:
It does not matter how high he sets the bar, camera trickery or not, no one here is going to float from building to building at any given moment


No-one is claiming that he is at any moment going to float from building to buidling, but in that effect he brought the stage to the street in a controlled situation. It isn't exactly on the moment magic, but it was a real audience reaction.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:06 am 
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sirbrad and thecooltonto

You think Criss is a cheap magician who relies on Camera Tricks and who uses stooges excusively. thecooltonto mentioned that only 1 or 2 people agreed with me.

Is this what others think? Perhaps some. But let us look at some of the comments of some people that have names larger then either of us.

Dale Hindman

Quote:
"Criss Angel is going to be a huge superstar in the world of magic,"


Quote:
"I predict that he will eclipse David Copperfield at some point because he is brilliant, he cares about magic and is willing to think outside the box.”


Quote:
He's the only guy who is out there on A&E, with huge ratings and is known...he's the logical choice,"


So to sirbrad and thecooltonto and anyone else.

Do you guys have a tv show? Where are your ratings? Armchair analysis is easy, put something out there on Video, let people compare you to Criss. Talk is cheap. Produce, if not then why are you criticizing so blindly?
His show last year started with a very small budget. It didn't have the money most people think.

Are you guys winning awards? Its one thing to be critical of someone's magic but what specifically can you compare from yourselves on video to Criss?


More statetments

Milt Larson
Quote:
"He is the most important person in magic this side of Doug Henning,"


Quote:
“Criss is presenting a new and different form of magic. He’s definitely bringing it into the future and I can’t think of anybody who’s doing it better.”


Edited Blackstone
Daugther of Harry Blackstone, Jr.
Quote:
"He is now the leading edge and the epitomy of magic,” said Blackstone. “We try to advance the art and the science of magic and he was the absolute perfect choice this year."


What people here are failing to realize is that Criss Angel has a tv show, is an entertainer, is an Artist.

From the Salvador Dalí type of surealism in the cut sequences, to using some original music with the illusions, to doing illusions that people haven't seen performed in this way. A new take on Old tricks, doing things in a different way.

Very easy to offer armchair comments, tell people to no end how things should be done.

I will tell you it is a darn hard to put out a tv show, to work inside 22 minutes with fast shooting everyday. To get things just right. You start to make mistakes. You cut corners. You are under pressure. That is logic, ratings and tv shows are not fun. They are fun when your successful. The mindfreak crew and people considering the time frame and the show criteria are doing a tremendous job.

To do interesting Magic every week for the length they have to do it for is not easy. I can't think of anyone who could keep up that type of pace and interest.

Simple street magic with cards would get half of your audience bored within 2 weeks.

Creating with vison on a timely basis is a darn hard thing to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Back to the Andre Kole vs Criss Angel Walking on Water topic. This is a non-contest. Ric Ocasek did the walking on water, in a swimming pool, illusion in 1984 in a video for The Cars' song "Magic". See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hbdvZ1y0c

End of discussion, unless somebody has evidence of a previous performance. Biblical references excluded.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:21 pm 
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Thanks for not reading the topic before you posted. If you had, you'd notice that this has been mentioned a few times already.


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