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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:43 am 
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oztheozzie wrote:
YummyPie wrote:
Well, you seem to always be posting in every Criss Angel forum and I'd like to prove you wrong (not "I want to bother you and argue). I said that there is no such thing as and illusion of an illusion or cheating magic because illusion is what the spectators think, not what you do. You can assume it because it is obvious but you can't accuse because you don't know exactly what is obvious. You keep saying he uses camera tricks but he doesn't. People only say that because they don't know how illusions are done but I don't see people accusing certain products of using camera tricks in their video demos. When you chop a performance up and take only the major parts of it, how are you supposed to find a method? So people just turn to the "good ol'" camera trick accusation. This process of cutting is necessary to create a tv show, it's a typical process for any television series. When you look at the episode, you'll be saying "camera tricks" but he performs it live. You're not even supposed to be trying to figure out the methods. That's the wrong attitude and approach to magic.


Like already said twice before, I dont care for editing to meet time contriants or to protect a secret. This stuff about magic being in the spec's eyes is a bunch of bs, it just sounds like it makes sense, but isn't actually true. Your spec sees the effect, she hears the magician's presentation, she feels his presence. What is it do you mean magic is what your spec thinks? Magic is the spec interpreting an effect, then being amazed or mystified, and the spectator enjoying it, that's magic. Angel does this when he uses camera tricks, but he did it by cheating, he did not use an illusion to accomplish this, he used an illusion of an illusion. You can't say he doesn't use camera editing either, you dont know for sure if he uses them or not either. You say I don't know what is obvious, what makes you sure you know what's obvious.

The thing really is that I don't like Angel, and you do. You like him, so you naturally think of him in a good light, I naturally think of him in a bad light(did that make sense?). Anyways, you will always be positive when it comes to Angel, and I will always be negative. But we really can't be sure which is right and which is wrong. So I'm not going to argue about this anymore, you can say you won if you like, and if you want to continue to argue, go ahead, there will be no answer, at least not from me.

-Tony
Whatever. I don't like Criss Angel as I said before. I wasn't accusing you of doing anything so why accuse me? You need to understand what magic means. It's what the spec feels (wonder, mystery, entertainment, etc.) because of your technique, skills, presentation, patter, effect, etc. It's never about the effect. You can have good technique and skill and such but you can never create true moments or wonder for your audience if you don't have the presentation and if that is your attitude. It's not about Criss Angel. It's about magic. I don't care about that guy, I'm just trying to back up what magic is. You also need to understand what an illusion is. Illusion is deception to fool perception. Either way you do it, if the spectator is "fooled" by it, then it is still illusion. If you decide to just be negative and keep saying "camera tricks", nobody wants to hear it. And you're ruining it for everyone else. I'm not just some guy that you can ignore because the world's greatest magicians say the same about magic. I honestly don't want to help you anymore so I don't care if you respond or not. Go spend all your money on "magic tricks" with no intent to improve your magic.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:30 am 
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I know I said I wouldn't respond, but here I am responding :oops: a quick one.

If people want to see Angel's illusions, in other words, camera tricks and stooges, in other words, special effects and paid actors, they watch movies like Superman and Matrix. When people watch magic shows, they expect magic, not special effects and actors. There's a difference between a magic illusion, and a Tv or movie illusion. People want to see magical illusions when watching a magic show, they want to see TV or movie illusions when watching a movie.

By the way. I do want to improve my magic. I spend money on tricks, books, and DVD's to learn effects. I practice in front of the mirror to perfect them, I practice my patter, I develope my own style and presentation. All this is for what? The entertainment of my audience, that is what magic is, my audience feeling mystified and entertained. But I don't want to do this by cheating. We are all liars, as magicians, but we are "honest liars", but when a magician uses camera tricks to achieve a magical effect, he's a liar period. I've said that a thousand times, because it's true.

This will be my last time responding, promise.

-Tony


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:54 pm 
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oztheozzie wrote:
I know I said I wouldn't respond, but here I am responding :oops: a quick one.

If people want to see Angel's illusions, in other words, camera tricks and stooges, in other words, special effects and paid actors, they watch movies like Superman and Matrix. When people watch magic shows, they expect magic, not special effects and actors. There's a difference between a magic illusion, and a Tv or movie illusion. People want to see magical illusions when watching a magic show, they want to see TV or movie illusions when watching a movie.

By the way. I do want to improve my magic. I spend money on tricks, books, and DVD's to learn effects. I practice in front of the mirror to perfect them, I practice my patter, I develope my own style and presentation. All this is for what? The entertainment of my audience, that is what magic is, my audience feeling mystified and entertained. But I don't want to do this by cheating. We are all liars, as magicians, but we are "honest liars", but when a magician uses camera tricks to achieve a magical effect, he's a liar period. I've said that a thousand times, because it's true.

This will be my last time responding, promise.

-Tony
I understand exactly what you're saying but what I have to say is not opinion, it's fact. It's not right to accuse someone in the first place without fact. Even if it seems "obvious", you're not supposed to do it. It's wrong. People will believe what they want to believe. I believe he doesn't use camera trickery to perform his effects. He is a respected magician and with some money, he spread it to the world to be recognized. No, I don't like him or what he does and whatever I say about him won't change you're mind even with true facts about typical tv shows. It is necessary to shorten the effects to fit them into episodes, that is why they look like camera editing. You're opinion cannot be supported because you never even saw the full performances. How can you judge an effect by it's climax? You can't. I know this is unethical but just in this case, I will use "trying to figure out methods" as an example. There are clues in the tricks that tell you, "he did it this way" or "look at his hand at the 30 second point" or something but if those things are cut out in order to have enjoyable, to-the-point, effects all stuffed into single episodes, then there is none of that to catch. T.v. shows (even if they are about magic) are for entertainment purposes only. Think about it, with the money he has, don't you think he could make things look more real if he did use camera "tricks"? It wouldn't be that "obvious", would it? Anyway, that's not imortant. What's important is that whether it's "cheating" or not, if the spectator still feels wonder and mystery and it creates "moments" for the specs, it is still magic. That does not mean it is okay to "cheat" because if he is doing it, it is still suffocating the art of magic to us magicians but what matters most is what the spectators feel. That's illusion still because the specs saw it as real. If they see it as real, then they won't see actors and stooges and camera tricks and lies would they? Superman and Matrix do use these things but they are not magic because they are not intended to be magic and everyone knows that it's special effects and such. If the illusion is created, then people do see magical illusions when watching a magic show even if created by "movie illusions". I didn't want to imply that you were not improving your magic, I wanted to say that you are not seeing magic correctly. My opinion is this: Criss Angel does not use movie illusions. There are methods to them. My stand is this: Movie illusions used for magic do create illusion but they are very unethical. My facts are this: Every book on theory you read, every definition, every interview, etc. will tell you that magic is what the spectator percieves (and it is misdirected and manipulated to create the illusion of impossibility). "Movie illusions" are unethical but accusing Criss Angel of doing it is unethical as well. That's not what magic is about.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:12 pm 
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born to perform.

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Location: My Mommy Says I Can't Tell You
He doesn't use camera tricks? Thats not what most others think.

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... p?t=109117

I know what you're gonna say, they have no proof, it's what they think.

But you don't have proof either, have you ever seen Angel float between buildings live? So it's what you believe when you say he doesn't use them. But I posted the link just to show you most people aren't stupid.

Darn I responded again!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:23 pm 
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oztheozzie wrote:
He doesn't use camera tricks? Thats not what most others think.

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... p?t=109117

I know what you're gonna say, they have no proof, it's what they think.

But you don't have proof either, have you ever seen Angel float between buildings live? So it's what you believe when you say he doesn't use them. But I posted the link just to show you most people aren't stupid.

Darn I responded again!
You edited your post but whatever. I know most people hate Criss Angel which is kind of why I wrote my posts and I don't need you to post a link for me because they're everywhere. Nobody except Criss Angel fans have anything good to say about him so I thought I should. I'm not a Criss Angel fan so I don't have exaggerated or misleading opinions. "I don't have proof but neither do you". That's very childish. Besides, if you don't have proof for neither, you have to leave it as the default which is that he didn't use them. I was just pointing out the facts to why he wouldn't be using them. There at least needs to be someone defending him. It's only fair. And "having proof" was never my point to get at. I again don't like him or what he does but I'm trying to say what he didn't do. You're saying that him "cheating" is obvious and I'm saying why that's not typical. You can believe what you want and I respect that but when you were putting misleading thoughts on what magic is, that's where I drew the line. Oh, and way to break your promise. :lol: Oh well.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:17 pm 
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Quote:
Oh, and way to break your promise. Oh well.


Thanks, I never was good with promises.

I was saying misleading things about what magic is? What do you think is magic?

I think it is very simple. I perform an effect, my audience is mystified and feels wonder, my audience is entertained. That's it, it's simple to me.

Anyways, this will definitely positively be the last time I respond. Like I said before, you're the kind of person who likes to argue, so there is no point to continue, you can respond if you like. I will not respond back, mark my words, I will not respond(I hope).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:28 pm 
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oztheozzie wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and way to break your promise. Oh well.


Thanks, I never was good with promises.

Anyways, this will definitely positively be the last time I respond. Like I said before, you're the kind of person who likes to argue, so there is no point to continue, you can respond if you like. I will not respond back, mark my words, I will not respond(I hope).
Bye-bye. I should be saying that to you. I wouldn't have to respond if you would understand what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong" like you were. I was trying to point some things out. If you do that to me, I could do the same to you. You're the kind of person who's insecure which is why you keep coming back to respond and you only think about what you have to say. I told you why I was responding. Just read and tell me why you are arguing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:02 pm 
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YummyPie wrote:
oztheozzie wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and way to break your promise. Oh well.


Thanks, I never was good with promises.

Anyways, this will definitely positively be the last time I respond. Like I said before, you're the kind of person who likes to argue, so there is no point to continue, you can respond if you like. I will not respond back, mark my words, I will not respond(I hope).
Bye-bye. I should be saying that to you. I wouldn't have to respond if you would understand what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong" like you were. I was trying to point some things out. If you do that to me, I could do the same to you. You're the kind of person who's insecure which is why you keep coming back to respond and you only think about what you have to say. I told you why I was responding. Just read and tell me why you are arguing.


I respond because I have an opinion and I want to defend it. You saying I am insecure just proves you are insecure. Why do people make fun of other people, because they are insecure, they think if I am fun of him, no one will make fun of me. I keep coming back like I am right now because i have a point to defend, that is all.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:47 pm 
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oztheozzie wrote:
YummyPie wrote:
oztheozzie wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and way to break your promise. Oh well.


Thanks, I never was good with promises.

Anyways, this will definitely positively be the last time I respond. Like I said before, you're the kind of person who likes to argue, so there is no point to continue, you can respond if you like. I will not respond back, mark my words, I will not respond(I hope).
Bye-bye. I should be saying that to you. I wouldn't have to respond if you would understand what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong" like you were. I was trying to point some things out. If you do that to me, I could do the same to you. You're the kind of person who's insecure which is why you keep coming back to respond and you only think about what you have to say. I told you why I was responding. Just read and tell me why you are arguing.


I respond because I have an opinion and I want to defend it. You saying I am insecure just proves you are insecure. Why do people make fun of other people, because they are insecure, they think if I am fun of him, no one will make fun of me. I keep coming back like I am right now because I have a point to defend, that is all.
What point? You only have an opinion. I'm the one with the point. You're just the one bashing it. And I only said you were insecure because you kept saying you weren't going to respond, not because you did. I'm not making fun of you. I'm just pointing out that you ignore what's important and only look at your own opinion, not the facts I have to offer. You're not insecure. You're just a hypocrite because you say you're not going to do things, you do it, and you bash me when I do the same. And yes, you "won" because you're going to be the last one posting. Hurray for you. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Whatever, this isn't going anywhere. And you are the one who wants to win, i can care less, most people agree with me anyways.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:07 am 
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Stooges or not, camera tricks or not.....

I just think he's creepy as...hello!

He gives me the heebie jeebies.

'Nuff said.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:52 am 
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jamesjay1 wrote:
Stooges or not, camera tricks or not.....

I just think he's creepy as...hello!

He gives me the heebie jeebies.

'Nuff said.
Yeah. Oh well, that's just who he is.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Woah woah woah wait a minute here.

Uh, what is wrong will yall? Have you forgotten something? Magic is fake.

All of it is bull. We make our living and/or hobby out of fooling people.
There is no REAL magic. We all fakers. There are no REAL magicians.

Since the above is an irrefutable fact, why do you bash ANYONE for using any and all tricks at their disposal to fool people.

I challenge ALL of you, heck I even challenge ANYONE on the PLANET to perform one feat just ONE that is truly done by magic alone.

Consider this:

Everytime you use a TT, you are "cheating".
Everytime you load your cups, you are "cheating".
Everytime you use IT, you are "cheating".
Everytime you do any sleight, you again are "cheating".
Everytime you use misidrection, yup, ya guessed it, you're "cheating".

This sinking in yet?


If any of us had a show we would use camera tricks as much as we could, regardless of how much sleight of hand or solid our routines were.
We all would use stooges as much as possible to get bigger reactions out of "mediocre" effects.

Camera tricks and stooges are simply tools to be used. I bet alot of you don't know that when the motion picture camera was first invented it was magicians who embrassed it first. They saw it as a means to perform the impossible. Look it up.

In the end isn't the point of magic the way we make the audience feel? Doesn't it give you a rush astouding them? Of course it does, that is why we do it, it is as much for us as it is for them. Don't delude yourself into thinking that they really think you have magical powers or worse, think that you yourself may have them. Don't believe your own BS.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
Consider this:

Everytime you use a TT, you are "cheating".
Everytime you load your cups, you are "cheating".
Everytime you use IT, you are "cheating".
Everytime you do any sleight, you again are "cheating".
Everytime you use misidrection, yup, ya guessed it, you're "cheating".


yes
Consider this:
everytime we're cheating, we're cheating live
we can cheat in front of any audience
at any time
at any place

according to you the next books written on magic should be books about camera editing and how to pay stooges
who needs a book about card tricks?
who needs a classic force if we can just pay someone to pick a particular card?
who needs a false shuffle if we can just cut away after the shuffle and cut back when we have a new deck?
who needs a book about coin magic?
who needs a coin vanish if we can just close our hands over a coin, open it again and edit the coin out afterwards?
who needs a levitation that you can do out on the street for a real audience if we can just pay some stooges to act amaze and use a blue screen?

this sinking in yet?

maybe it's just me,
but that's not the art I want to perform and not the methods I want to use to amaze people


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:33 pm 
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It's not the methods or effects that amaze people, it's the magician.
Any magician who exists, I ask you this: Exactly what are we cheating? Absolutely nothing. Why? Because you can't cheat deception or illusion. Can you cheat happiness? Can you cheat passion? No, you can't and you can't cheat a childhood or amazement either.


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