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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:46 am 
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First of all I didn't expose the illusion to any laymen. All I said was that there was a gimmicked table. I never say what the gimmick is.

bucky310, so you don't consider stopping the filming and bringing in a different set of tables a camera trick? We aren't talking about a camera edit that just switches from one angle to another. We are talking about stopping the camera and then completely changing props. That's not a camera trick to you?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:08 pm 
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jverrone wrote:
First of all I didn't expose the illusion to any laymen. All I said was that there was a gimmicked table. I never say what the gimmick is. By saying it is a gimmicked table gets laymen to think of how it can be done, so in fact you did expose.

bucky310, so you don't consider stopping the filming and bringing in a different set of tables a camera trick? We aren't talking about a camera edit that just switches from one angle to another. We are talking about stopping the camera and then completely changing props. That's not a camera trick to you?In my opinion, a camera trick is something that can only be done with the use of a camera (like his building to building float), and a camera edit is a cut in filming to hide the secret or make it look better than it actually is.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:41 pm 
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I never said he isn't using camera tricks. I said I don't care if he's using camera tricks. I can entertain my audience. People like watching me perform. Obviously, you don't have this issue, or Angel wouldn't bother you. As for stooges and camera tricks, you still haven't proven anything more than speculation. Now, to tell me that I don't know how a simple vanish is done is pretty insulting considering quite a few accomplishments of mine that I seriously doubt you could match. To say some of the not only inappropriate, but asinine things you're saying shows a lack of maturity on your part. Once again, if you don't like Angel, quit watching him perform and searching for his videos on Youtube. Don't half [edited] it. Go all out if you don't like him. Avoid him. I haven't seen his show in years. I don't watch his videos online. I really just don't care to see him.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:51 pm 
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magikrn wrote:
By saying it is a gimmicked table gets laymen to think of how it can be done, so in fact you did expose.


Since when is thinking a crime? Maybe that's why I see so little of it here. :wink:

There are many ways to do a "camera trick." I don't think post processing editing is one of them. It's done all the time by every TV show in the business.

I do agree that it's a bit unfair that he claims "no camera tricks" and then relies on these edits to hide the "dirty work."

But then again, Criss isn't the only one. Many TV magician take advantage of this. Do you think Copperfield's "Grandfather's Aces" would look as good in person? Or did it depend on carefully controlled camera angles. There are times where they explicitly say that the camera won't cut away. There are other times when this isn't said but is just assumed. That's where we use these cuts to our advantage. Some people here might call "foul" but it's our job to misdirect. Used properly, it's just another tool in our bag of tricks.


Last edited by DaveV on Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Oh X, I haven't seen the check in person, but I do personally know one of Criss' "random tourists" that he used in season one. She was performing in "World's Greatest Magic" at the Greek Isles (still is as far as I know). A casting call went out to all the dancers in the show asking if they wanted to make some extra money.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:02 pm 
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DaveV wrote:
There are many ways to do a "camera trick." I don't think post processing editing is one of them. It's done all the time by every TV show in the business.

I do agree that it's a bit unfair that he claims "no camera tricks" and then relies on these edits to hide the "dirty work."

But then again, Criss isn't the only one. Many TV magician take advantage of this. Do you think Copperfield's "Grandfather's Aces" would look as good in person? Or did it depend on carefully controlled camera angles. There are times where they explicitly say that the camera won't cut away. There are other times when this isn't said but is just assumed. That's where we use these cuts to our advantage. Some people here might call "foul" but it's our job to misdirect. Used properly, it's just another tool in our bag of tricks.


Editing different scenes together is cheating no matter how you look at it. Bottom line Criss can't do the tricks on his show in person. Of course he can do a vanish in a live show but he can't do it the way he presents it on his show and that is BS. If you offered Criss a million dollars to recreate that table top vanish in person for you he couldn't do it like he does on the show. It is that simple.

As for Copperfield's "Grandfather's Aces" yes it can be done just as well in person. I can almost do it and I'm an amateur. Most tricks are angle sensitive so I see no problem in using camera angles.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:04 pm 
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DaveV wrote:
Oh X, I haven't seen the check in person, but I do personally know one of Criss' "random tourists" that he used in season one. She was performing in "World's Greatest Magic" at the Greek Isles (still is as far as I know). A casting call went out to all the dancers in the show asking if they wanted to make some extra money.


I'm sure this won't be enough proof for him. He will more than likely want a hidden camera video of her admitting "Yes Criss Angel paid me to be a stooge".


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:13 pm 
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jverrone wrote:
DaveV wrote:
There are many ways to do a "camera trick." I don't think post processing editing is one of them. It's done all the time by every TV show in the business.

I do agree that it's a bit unfair that he claims "no camera tricks" and then relies on these edits to hide the "dirty work."

But then again, Criss isn't the only one. Many TV magician take advantage of this. Do you think Copperfield's "Grandfather's Aces" would look as good in person? Or did it depend on carefully controlled camera angles. There are times where they explicitly say that the camera won't cut away. There are other times when this isn't said but is just assumed. That's where we use these cuts to our advantage. Some people here might call "foul" but it's our job to misdirect. Used properly, it's just another tool in our bag of tricks.


Editing different scenes together is cheating no matter how you look at it. Bottom line Criss can't do the tricks on his show in person. Of course he can do a vanish in a live show but he can't do it the way he presents it on his show and that is BS. If you offered Criss a million dollars to recreate that table top vanish in person for you he couldn't do it like he does on the show. It is that simple. So you are saying that cheating is still cheating no matter what. What about that extra something in cups and balls, that thing that slides over coins to make 2 look like 1? What about everything else that the audience doesn't know about. I have no problem with camera cuts to hide the secret, which is what he uses in MOST of his effects. I am against the full on camera tricks like floating onto a lightpole or from building to building.

As for Copperfield's "Grandfather's Aces" yes it can be done just as well in person. I can almost do it and I'm an amateur. Most tricks are angle sensitive so I see no problem in using camera angles. I would love to see this.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Interesting discussion, considering our entire profession depends on cheating, misleading, misdirecting, to get our job done.

Although he used to have a stage show (and will again starting next year) Criss' current TV performances are designed for just that; Television. I really don't mind that he can't do it exactly the same way in person.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:47 pm 
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Dave, I agree.

While I believe that on Phenomenon he behaves unprofessionally and like an immature, spoiled child, you can't take his success away from him. He has brought magic into the mainstream. I personally have no problem with his show, even though his presentation makes me cringe at times. I think one of the reasons he needs to use camera tricks (yes, needs to) is because on video, you lack one important asset that live magicians have: misdirection. On TV, anyone can rewind and watch over and over to figure out what happened.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:50 pm 
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So let me ask this then.

Let's say I do an act where I have people standing around. They watch me put a cover over a car. Then I rip the cover off and the car has vanished.

But I accomplish the trick by paying stooges to act as strangers and I cut the film so I can remove the car. Then I put the cover back. When we roll tape I yank the cover off. The video was edited to make it look like a continuous scene.

Does that make me an illusionist?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:53 pm 
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It makes for an entertaining TV show.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:54 pm 
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And I'm really sick of the people that say Criss Angel brought magic into the mainstream. That's really insulting to people like David Copperfield, Lance Burton, Penn and Teller, David Blaine, etc. Every one of them has had tv specials. And everyone of them was just as popular at one time.

Criss hasn't brought magic into the mainstream anymore than anyone else.


Last edited by jverrone on Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:56 pm 
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miniserb725 wrote:
It makes for an entertaining TV show.


That wasn't my question. I said does that make me an illusionist?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Sure, why not? It's been done that way before. I've been in the audience during filming of things just like that.

Here's one example:

Do you remember Copperfield's upside down straitjacket with burning ropes? Do you really think it was done in one take? Or even five? Ten? Now you're getting closer.

The ending reaction shots were done first. His final successful take of the escape was done on an empty stage long after they gave up and sent the people home for the night.

You'd never know it by looking at the finished product. This is one illusion he'll never perform in a live show.


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