There have been 67 aired episodes of Mindfreak - that's 67 "big stunts" repeating some of them - hence he's done roughly 40 without blatant repetition "30 or so".

Counting "every effect he's ever done" it's not even a contest. Compare every effect I've ever done to every effect he's done - even I would win that contest - let alone Lance Burton and the alike.

You seem to be misinformed as to what professional magicians do - most of us spend no less than 20 hours per week performing - that's hundreds of effects on a weekly basis easily blowing away any numbers Criss has going.





He's a performer, he is judged by his performance and anyone who watches is entitled to judge him as they see fit - by performing, he submits to te judgements of the audience.

I don't think it's a lack of professionalism not to work 24/7, but I do think it's a lack of professionalism not to practice your effects before you use them on TV. In contrast, if I have a show to do tomorrow, I don't go clubbing tonight. I have a responsibility to my audience to put on a good show - so does Criss.

By the way, last I heard that movie was cancelled.





My cousin, a huge Angel fan, gave me a detailed explanation of his water walk minutes after the show - her explanation was spot on.

She, like so many others, lost interest in the show after the second season.



Not being in magic long doesn't give you the ability to determine what laymen think.
Unless you ARE a laymen, you simply don't think like one.
&
Unless you've spent ALOT of time working with spectators - you don't know how they think.



You'll have a hard time finding laymen that are smart enough to figure out that you can control a stage but stupid enough to miss that you can control TV viewing. I can't tell you how many spectators have commented on Angel's "obvious camera tricks" and "eh, it's TV magic."

In reality, most people are far more impressed when they see something live - maybe it's a stage, but I know there wasn't any camera editing.


"I'm not going to argue with your opinion, but your opinion is wrong" - interesting.



Rather presumptuous of you to assume that you know anything about me or where I get my information. In reality, I've lurked the Loyals area many time and have seen very little beyond blind devotion.


Translation: You made a statement you can't back-up and don't want to discuss it anymore.



A more accurate test is to show someone footage of the statue of liberty vanish (video being the original viewing format anyway) and to show them a T&R effect in person - I can guarantee that the T&R will get the better reaction. People like things that are done in person - and they already know that TV magicians use camera tricks to get the job done.


I performed an ACR effect for a man in a bar almost five years ago, and I saw him at a charity event last month. He's kept the card in his wallet since the night I performed it for him "to remind me that anything is possible".

There are countless stories of the same nature - almost all of them are about close-up card magic.

Most people's first exposure to magic is a card trick - that's the trick they remember for the rest of thier lives.



Having the highest viewer ratings "on A&E" isn't much to brag about. The average Seinfeld episode got over 20million viewers - in the days when there where no webcasts of shows.

Long story short, 10million isn't that impressive.




That's not quite what I said.

Criss is the magician (and I use the term loosely) with the highest visibility right now - he is therefore "our spokesman" by definition - in the public's view anyway.

My point was that it's sad that Criss is the spokesman for magic, since he doesn't represent the art accurately nor does he do it a service by representing it as he does.

No offense but don't you think that it is a little peculiar that you are obsessed with criss angel. I mean hinestly being obsessed with anyone cannot be healthy esppecialy criss angel. And to say that he is doing so much for magic and has performed so many great illusions and doing so much more than all of these other magicians is a little, I'd say untruthful.
The one illusion I will giv ehim credit for and he has done a grea tjob at it for sometime until a little while ago is him fooling people into thinking tha the is the greatest magician he is not. You may not want to believe this(because he simply has you under his spell) but lots of what Criss does employs what we as magicians consider as unethical methods such as; Camera tricks and stooging. Not only does he use them but lies to his audience by saying he doens't use them to make himself seem as thoguh he is a great magician. These acusations aren't just speculations but have been prooved by many. Now lets say that he really didn't use this methods. Lets say he was a great technical magician. Well he still would have horribel presentation and be an egotistical [edited]. Such as his manuy claims of being the king of magic when we as magicians know what he really does. Now lets say he had a great personality was a nice guy but he still has a huge team of consulatnts which come up with mose of his tricks for him. But he get all the credit. Does that make him the best when others create their own magic or have a few conultants that help them create not actually creat for them ? The really sad part is he is very egotistical,he does you camera tricks and stooges(and lies about it), and he has a huge team to create for him.( don't believe me I have actually ment some of his consultants and we have discussed criss and his show).


sean.mcquaid

No, that's not even close. Look, I find it somehow interesting and start to enjoy discussing with you. I'm always interested in experiencing different opinions, that's a great way to learn a lot! But as I "predicted", we are going in circles and you turn the words around in my mouth, or you simply don't understand me, I don't know. If you want, we can go on discussing, I just don't see much sense in it because I feel that noone will really convince the other. Man, I love discussing, but also I don't want to annoy other users by arguing in circles.
Look, I understand some of your points, and some of the reasons why many magicians don't like Criss. That doesn't mean that I agree, but I can comprehend them. Since I joined this community, I've spent a lot of time reading many of the older topics in the Angel/Blaine forum, because I wanted to find out where all this hate started, where the different reasons come from in first line and so on. Just to let you know that I invest much time to understand a different opinion before I judge it and come to a personal conclusion. But what you're doing is attacking almost every argument I state and literally turn it around... For example, in my last post I already said that none of us can speak for everybody out there- I have my experiences, you have yours. Nevertheless you keep arguing by talking as if my experiences were worth nothing. You say you know many people who lost interest in Criss, fine, I know many people who don't. So that's nothing worth arguing about, because we both are right. There are these and those.



Not really. The thing is, of course they know that an illusion that looks impossible could be a camera trick. But the thing is, it still raises the question "what if not", and that inspires people to think about what's impossible and what's not and come to conclusions they maybe never even thought of before. Again, that doesn't go for everybody, but for those who make this experience it's really inspiring. Also, many people want to believe... they just enjoy that "wow"-feeling.

I agree that it's most impressive to experience a live performance, I never said something contrary. That's why I want to watch Criss' live show, I want to be there and see the illusions with my own eyes. But not everybody has the possibility to see a magician performing live. I think here in Germany the situation- and therefore my experiences- is quite different. We don't have so many street magicians here, it's not that popular as in America. If you ever have the luck to see a magician performing on the street here it's mostly some cheesy guy doing kid's stuff... And when you ask people here to spontaniously name all the magicians they know, you will find that many of them can only name Copperfield, the younger ones will also name Blaine and Angel. And if you ask them for their favourite tricks, they will name something huge. But again, that's just my experience and of course I didn't ask 1000s of people.



Lol you're right, now that I read it again it really sounds like that, but honestly I didn't mean it that way. I just wanted to point out that what you think about the Loyals doesn't affect or bother me, because I am a Loyal myself and I know myself better than anybody else.




I said probably, because that was my impression. I didn't mean to offend you. It's just that I have friends in the Loyal community I often chat in private, and therefore I know that many of us like to provoke on public boards and are highly entertained by making other people crazy... to give you an example, I'll let you in on a little secret. Many of us know and accept that Criss used camera tricks and stooges in some of his shows. But almost none of us would admit that in a public forum! I only do that here because I'm talking to magicians, and I'm also stepping into this art. Criss is a provocateur, and so are his fans. Since people started to call us "brainwashed" and "blind followers", we don't do much to prove them wrong. It's really an interesting issue. But remember, I'm not talking about those teens who really make themselves look stupid by only making comments like "he's hot, he can do no wrong and everybody else sucks". Of course there are "blind followers", I don't deny that. But not as many as it looks like, most of the Loyals I have talked to just like to provoke and know much more than they are willing to admit. I mean, we all have our reasons to be Loyals and of course we don't talk bad about our "hero". Especially not on his homepage or the Loyal forums.
Another thing is, when I agree with many statements that come from Criss, that doesn't mean that I agree because they come from him. No, it's just that one of the reasons I became a Loyal is because I am on the same wavelength and already thought like this long before I even heard about him. That causes an emotional connection many "outsiders" can't understand, and therefore they call us "brainwashed" or "blindly devoted".

Oh and sean, I'm not obsessed with Criss the way you might think I am. I just love his art, especially the variety of it including the music. I have read his book, watched all of his DVDs, I often listen to his music CDs and read/watch every interview I can find on the internet. I'm emotionally envolved because I connected with him and his art on an emotional level, but it's not as extreme as it might seem to you. It influences my life in a positive way. I never said that he's the best magician in the world- no, he just inspires me more than any other entertainer I've ever seen. If you want to know one of my more in-depth reasons, to see his body suspension (also some other things, but mainly this one) gave me the strength to overcome a fear that really affected my life in a negative way. And honestly, that's not some crap I say because I'm so devoted, that's the truth. Therefore, of course I'm grateful, but it doesn't make me blind. For example, it doesn't bother me how he really did the building float, when I connected with the beauty of it and it inspired me so much. This result is much more important for me than the method he used, even if it was a camera trick as, without much doubt, in this case. I remember how I felt when I saw it the first time... what I felt in this moment was pure magic. It was the first video I ever saw of him, in that moment I didn't even know if he was an illusionist or some guy who pretends he would really be able to fly! It was an image I had never seen before, and was literally thought-provoking- so much that it even gave me an idea for a short story I started to write later.
I almost forgot to mention that he's the one who made me step into the art, gave me back my interest in magic.

All I ask of other magicians here is to accept that I'm also entitled to my opinions without constantly decrying them- or even bashing me for them- like some guys in this community already did more than once. I said it in other topics and I'll do it again now, I don't attack anybody on a personal level and I expect others to do the same please. The world would be a boring place if everybody had the same opinion about everything...

Puh, that was a long post!

Oh, I get it. Thanks for clearing that up. You're saying the loyals are all secretly conspiring to ruin magic for the rest of the world by turning it into a negative experience full of "criss rocks everyone else is Edited". The loyals despite the truth you know they have, are making the rest of the world think that 2bit criss is the best we got. Thanks.


Juliegel

I fail to see what you a rallying around. Evey aspect of the following criss has screams cult.
I found this and was not very surprised to find that it is a lot like the group that criss has.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

And plus wouldn't you like to be a Loyal Freak,(that is what he calls them on his site).


Juliegel

Juliegel, I'm even an Ultimate Loyal Freak! Your post and your link just show me that you don't understand anything about me, keep on if it makes you happy- at least you do it the funny way instead of the serious bashing way. Just one thing, no, the Loyals are not ruining anything, most of us just love Criss and his art more than anything else what the entertainment industry offers.

Ok hypothetical situation. Lets just say I love the movie The Breakfast Club. Some would be with me in saying it is the best movie ever made,(not all but I am trying to make a point here). I and my other "breakfast loyals" decide to get rid of "anything else what the entertainment industry has to offer",by destroying all other movies.

Now it is a bit crazy to kill all magicians that aren't criss angel so resorting to slandering their good name to the public by saying "Well criss is the king of magic he is better than anybody", will have to suffice.

What the loyals are doing is putting other, better, more talented magicians beneath criss in the public eye. Harry Anderson is a great magician and has had a few TV specials. He is WAY more talented than criss but because of what you loyals have done, Harry like many others has been pushed out of memory.

One more thing. I and I am sure most all of us are tired of you constantly saying, "well, you just don't understand me". This is not about you. You are the loyal representative here. When we say things to you we are saying them to all the loyals. You are working this job so you might get cought in the crossfire.


Juliegel

Juliegel, I see what you mean, but it's a little unfair. First of all, I honestly feel kind of honored that you see me as a representative for the Loyal! But it's not what I am. I can speak for many of them, for those who share my point of view, but definitely not for everybody... I'm just stating my opinions. There are also those Loyals who would be angry with me for admitting Criss uses camera tricks, lol, but however. Ok if you really see me as a representative, I'll do my best to do the job!

What I mean is unfair is that you consider the Loyals to decry or even destroy other magicians willingly to support Criss Angel. Most of them just don't know all those great magicians- same with me, I didn't know masters like Banachek or Jeff McBride before I saw them on Mindfreak. Since I stepped into the art myself, I got interested in seeing other magicians as well. But I think most of the other Loyals don't- and here I have to go back to something I already stated earlyer. They've seen these huge illusions like walking on water, they have seen him hanging from a helicopter by fishhooks, and they have never seen anything like it before- therefore, they think he must be the best. What I say is this: he may not be the best magician in the world, but for me and many others he's the best entertainer in the business. Many of us connect with what he does on an emotional level. And when somebody thinks he is the best magician, well that's just a personal opinion. Everybody has his/her opinion of who is the best, while nobody can know them all, especially not those who are not that popular.
Oh and since when is it the fault of somebody's fans when another artist is not that popular anymore? As I said before, there's no accounting for taste and many fans just like Criss' style and performance a lot more than the traditional magic they have experienced before. And to think Criss is the best is not a surprise at all, he has won the Magician of the year 5 times now, he has done a lot of mind-blowing illusions and he has become a star. And even if many of us know Criss used camera tricks for some of his illusions, the emotional connection and the thought-provoking result is just much more important for us. There's a great quote that comes from Criss: "An illusion is what your eyes believe to see, magic is what you feel when you watch the illusion". And he's the one who makes us feel the magic.
Oh there's something that comes to my mind right now... I admit that he used camera tricks, but definitely not that much some people think. While browsing through the older forums, one of the illusions where almost everybody thought it would be a camera trick was the one where he disappeared from a garbage can and reappeared on the roof of a building. Even I can think of a method how he can have done that, and I'm just a beginner in magic!

That's regularly referred to as "a debate".
The problem this time around has been that your arguments simply don't make sense and/or are contradicted by something else you've said.


No actualy you said that you would educate us all on how laymen think - then gave an un-educated guess at what laymen think, based on no evidence to speak of.

Secondly - sorry to crush your illusions here, but my experience and yours hardly fall into the same category, credibility, or authority ranges.


Here's a prime example of what I meant when I said that you don't think like a laymen. You aren't thinking like a magician at this point either - you're thinking like a Criss Angel fan.

There is an old saying that has governed the scripting, cover methods, and angle proofing of effects for decades - "If a magician fools 90% of the people - he has failed. If a spectator figures out 10% of an effect - he has suceeded."
In other words - if the spectator thinks he knows the method - game over. The problem with your argument is that the people who stop to think "What if it's not a camera trick" are exceptionally rare.


I have asked thousands of people over years of performing professionally. When Copperfield was #1 they gave his name, then Burton, then Blaine. Most of them name Penn and Tellar now and most 18and under name Blaine.


Not offended, I'm just pointing out that it's presumptuous.


And this ISN'T a cult? Right


On an unrelated note: the phrase you where looking for earlier was "Putting words in my mouth" or "Twisting my words" - either would be gramatically correct in this context.

Ok, of course I am a Criss Angel fan, and that has an influence on my point of view. But, I wasn't a fan when I saw his illusions for the first time, and what I described earlyer (for example what I felt while watching the building float) was my experience as a layman before I even knew who Criss Angel was. A camera trick was definitely not my first thought- I saw it as a possibility because it looked so unbelievable, but I also thought about a lot of other possibilities how he could have done it. If I were a millionaire and had access to the newest technology... actually I believe it could be done without camera tricks.
So if those people who think beyond all that are really so rare, maybe I misjudge the "typical layman"... maybe I should have said "those laymen who became a Criss Angel fan because of an experience like this". And when I say fan, I don't necessarily mean a Loyal, because there are some differences.
On the other hand, there are those in my environment who are not even fans, but I showed them some videos on youtube and discussed them with them. That's where my experience comes from, of course I believe and respect that you have more experience. Just to explain why I thought like this, but you convinced me in this case.




No it's just a very loyal fan club! Seriously, there's a reason why I wrote "outsiders" in brackets. For most of the Loyals it's more than being a fan, for some it's a way of life, for others a philosophy, and others are just in love with him- but this kind of love for a celebrity is not unusual, isn't it? Nevertheless people who don't understand it call the Loyals "brainwashed", and after a time of anger we now make jokes about it and "prove" them right by provoking from time to time. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with an emotional connection, as long as it has a positive influence on somebody's life and doesn't go so far that it becomes more important than the own private life.



Thank you very much, that helps a lot!

I'm sorry you've been seduced by the Dark Side. You could have been a powerful Jedi. You've succumbed to the evil of the Emperor.

^ ahahahaha did you make that?

Lol MichalAngelo, that's gross but funny! But the truth is that at the end of time, he will take all the true Loyals with him back to Amystika... while some others will think he's the Antichrist and took us to edited. Just kidding, believe me, I've heard it all and there's not much that can surprise me anymore- though I really enjoy this kind of humour.

P.S.: Since when is "the word that could be described as the opposite of heaven" a badword that has to be edited?

Yeah. I made that.

I personally think that it is ok to hate Criss angel. I hate him at times but just think... without Angel, magic wouldn't be as popular. The thing i hate is when he does these grand illusions so when us as regular magicians peform people expect Angel illusions. But we still have to thank Angel for making magic MORE popular.