The building float wasn't a camera trick - but there was some creative editing. Notice that his face is never shown while he's in the air, in fact he's never shown up close, nor does he move even the slightest bit - a bit like a manequinne.






Well, you certainely misjudged the typical laymen.
Secondly, it has nothing to do with "thinking beyond" anything. When "camera trick" is the answer - there's no "beyond" to think to.

As a wise man once said, "Isn't it funny how "Something Beyond" is just backwords BS."




Looking to a celebrity for your philosophy or to provide you with a "way of life" is unusual - and incredably foolish.

Referring to the bold section - I'm sorry, are you still saying it's NOT a cult, or did you switch sides?

Sounds interesting... I never thought about something like this, lol. But I'll have a closer look when I watch the episode the next time. Well to be honest, I'm reconsidering about this certain illusion for a while now, about all the arguments that seem to prove a camera trick. I didn't want to bring up this discussion again because I was expecting to be called out by everyone so it wouldn't make any sense, but... For example, did you notice that in one shot he has his ankles crossed, but that's not the case in all the other shots? This and the movement of the clouds were brought up as a prove- but it could also mean that it was done several times and bad edited later- this happened with the garbage can illusion, too. However, I still love it because it looks so beautiful, no matter how it was done.



Am I not the proof that there are exceptions? I try to think beyond almost everything, that's part of my personality. If there's the possibility for something to be a camera trick, I will not commit myself to believe it until I see some hard proof.




Actually I'm still saying it has nothing to do with a cult, yes. I guess I have to explain it more detailed: the philosophy or way of life thinking has to do with the messenges he sends out, to believe in yourself, accomplish your dreams and so on. There are so many young people who never believed in those messages when they came from their parents, teachers or whoever. Then they saw a man who leads by example, and for some reason they could believe in him, and in turn in these messages. I already mentioned the body suspension, this has really become a symbol for many. I've heard so many Loyals say something like "everytime I have to go through something very challenging, I think of that image and feel better, it gives me some kind of strength". How can that be wrong? I overcame a very personal fear this way. If you make an experience like this, it's not hard to understand that you're grateful. Wouldn't you look up to a person who made your life better, or had a positive influence on it? I admit that some of us are a little... extreme, or at least make themselves look like that. But at last, we are just loyal the way it's described in the dictionary, and have different reasons for it.





I absolutely agree that everybody has the right to hate whoever he wants, that's clear. I just don't like it when they try to convince me... (to avoid any misunderstandings, I don't mean you. )
But why I reply to you, you brought up a good point, and there's something I just don't understand: I've read this earlyer in some older posts, does it really happen so often that people come up to street magicians and ask them if they can do those huge illusions? I mean, I guess I misjudge people again but... shouldn't everybody at least know that big illusions usually- with only some exceptions- cost big money?! And that what Criss is doing in this case is literally bringing the stage to the streets, and that he has the money and the team to do it? I thought that most people are clever enough to know that, but I can imagine that it's frustrating if it happens. But I'm sure that if you are a good performer, you can handle such a situation.

No. I never contested that "some" people do that - I said they where rare.
The problem is they aren't 'overthinking' because they think it's not a camera trick - they don't think it's a camera trick because they overthink.

In other words, their desire for it to be "something more" overrules their common sense and tells them that it's not a camera trick. It's not that they don't think it's a camera trick, they just don't want it to be - so it's not. This brings us back to the "blind loyalty" subject.


That will prove a hindrance to you later in life. Trying to find deeper meanings in things, simply becase you want there to be more, is the base ingredient for conspiracy theorists.

Take a shot at the logical thought process - The chain of events requiring the fewest links is the most likely one to occur.


Proof of Angel's editting has been posted many-a-time. The "shadow of a doubt" system has its place, but it's far from this subject. Said system also has a tendancy to cause a stubbron refusal to believe things that are obvious and/or provable.


I understand what you mean - I think you juss missed my point. Do YOU want mini-angel's walking around? You're suggesting that Criss "leads by example" - if such is the case, we are expected to follow his example are we not?

The 7 Step System to Following Angel's Example
1)Stop bathing so you look dirty constantly.
2)Become obcessively vain, and don't let any sentence go by without talking about yourself.
3)Be sure to put down anyone who could pose a threat to you - or act like you've never heard of them ("Blaine who?")
4)Stop practicing entirely - cool people don't need practice.
5)Bad mouth everyone who helped you build your career.
6)Throw a massive fit when a contest judge informs you that your girlfriend isn't the hottest girl in the room.

What an example it is. . .





Okay? So thinking about a guy "levitating" when you know perfectly well that there's somethign holding him up - something removed from view in the production process - makes you feel strong? No offense, but if THAT gives you strength these have got to be some seriously weak people.

A note: Modern cults are typically started around someone who is considered symbolic, inspiring, or magical. They also pray on the weak minded and/or the gullible. Frankly your descriptions only prove that The Loyals fit the definition of a cult to a T.

LoyalBanana

I am stating to feel like you are insulting our intelligence. You put up this constant fight. Do you really believe that we are all wrong. You seem to think that your year or so of magical experience make you the expert and thwarts anything we got. You seem to think that you are the in between of magician and layperson. There is no such thing. Magicians do not judge a magician based on the "emotions" he causes. The magician wants the laypeople to think about the emotions.
You are not a magician. You are a layperson. I do not know why you think you are a magician but based on the way you perceive magic, you are a layperson. Having your own opinion is fine but when you start to argue with informed professional opinions that are based in fact and not "feelings", that I find insulting.

P.S. The loyals are an early cult.


Juliegel

quick change that before he/she tries to insult your grammar

Where exactly did I say this? I was actually talking about the body suspension on the helicopter in this context. When it comes to the levitation, it's a quite different thing: it looks beautiful to me, and it inspired me a lot. I stated earlyer that it gave me the idea for writing a short story, for example, because of all the different thoughts that came to my mind because of it. And how can you know for sure that there's no possibility that the gimmick, if it where wires or not, wasn't invisible for the people who where there? I have a lot of imagination, you know. Anything is possible... maybe not as much as I think, but as long as it inspires me, who cares? I don't.
For your other argument, yes, of course there are some weak people out there- it doesn't matter what helps them to feel stronger, as long as there is something that helps them and makes there life a little better.


Thanks for the advice, I believe you to mean well. But you know, I'm an artist, I write poems and short stories, I'm a sensible and emotional person and I love philosophy. It's not that I absolutely want to believe in anything, it's more that thinking beyond everything is some kind of mind-game that helps me to be as creative as I can. To use the building float example again... even if it's nothing more than a camera trick, when people are able to think beyond that and brainstorm other possibilities, maybe someday there's somebody who will be able to really accomplish doing it live! That's my point.


Juliegel... *sigh*.

I didn't start a fight at all, all I was doing is stating my opinions. Everytime I say anything positive about Criss and write down my reasons for it, people literally force me to defend myself over and over again. If you think that my arguments are so stupid and that I'm so wrong, why don't you just ignore my posts? When I said earlyer that I don't want to discuss on, because I already knew that we will be discussing in circles, I was asked to go on, so I did it. I have the same rights to state my opinion as everybody else here, and that's all I do. Oh and btw., calling me "LoyalBanana" is a very mature behaviour.



I found that "not quite a layman anymore, but not yet a magician"- which was actually the term I used- would be the easyest way to describe it. What I mean is, I'm a beginner in magic, so I am getting more and more knowledge step by step, and that means sometimes I'm already watching magic with different eyes, on the other hand sometimes I just enjoy it and experience it as a lay person without thinking about methods and technology at all.
And the reason why I described my feelings is that I was asked to do it, it's a very important part of my life and has a huge influence on how I experience magic. I'm actually on my way to become a magician (maybe not a professional one, for the moment more a hobbyist, though I'm thinking of including some magic to my other street art in the future), and I think to share my opinions here can't be bad. Maybe you noticed that I agreed to some points other people here made, because I respect their experienced statements. On other things I disagree, and we're all entitled to our opinions.
No matter how far I will step into the art of magic, Criss Angel will always be the reason why I even started. I see a topic where I think it's worth to contribute, all I want do do is writing one post, and faster as I can even imagine, it turns out into a fight.

You keep saying that.
It is NOT Criss' art. He is NOT unique. As far as I know, he has NOT invented anything he's done thus far.

Regardless as to what YOU, the Loyal or even Criss want to claim, the fact remains that he is a MAGICIAN. The ART of magic has been around THOUSANDS of years, (since AT LEAST the time of the Egyptian Pharos; as they are recorded in Biblical texts that are more than 3,000 years old). Criss has used magic props, magic principals, has referenced the word, "magic" to describe what he does, has referenced other magicians as inspiration and has hired professional magicians as "consultants."

Please realize that CRISS ANGEL IS A MAGICIAN.
Knowing that, please also realize that what Criss does is NOT his "art."
The art of magic has NOT been updated or improved by Criss Angel, is certainly not owned by Criss Angel and I would argue that it is actually being hurt by what he's continuing to do.
He, you and his 'Loyal' should not be referring to anything magic-related as "his" art. It is not.
Neither is acting his "art."
Neither is escapism his "art."
Neither is mentalism his "art."
Neither is singing/playing Rock music his "art."
He owns NONE of them; nor is he even approaching being a master of any of them.
So please stop calling what he does, "his art."

RadioRob, I guess you got me wrong or I articulated myself wrong. I never said he's not a magician or anything, lol, maybe I said he's not a traditional magician, and it was in another context.
But when I talk about somebody's art, in general, I mean everything this specific artist does, not more and not less. If I would talk about Salvador Dali's art, for example, I wouldn't mean the art of surrealistic painting in general, I would mean the paintings he did. I guess it's not a good example, but at the moment I don't know how to say it better. I could name a different magician, I could in other contextes say "Copperfield's art" or "Jeff McBride's art", and I wouldn't mean the art of magic in general but what the specific performer does. At least that's how I say it in german, didn't know it can be misunderstood so bad, my fault.
P.S.: One more time, when I say "Criss' art", I mean everything he does as an artist, magic, music and so on, his personal style and all. Nobody "owns" any art form itself, but every good artist has his own style how he does and interpretes it. And that's what we love about Criss, the way he does it, it's nothing more than a question of taste.

Didn't realize you where talking about the helecopter. That's something of a bed of nails stunt though.


You're right - you have alot of imagination.
To lift Criss' weight (assumed to be 185lbs) he would need either wires to lift from above, or a hydrolic system to lift him from below (we're referring to his highest levitations where he exceeps 3 feet). The thinnest wires that could accomplish such a feet are as thick as a pencil, and the smallest hydrolic jcak that could lift him is as wide as a toilet paper roll (just the cardboard part). Either way, there are no existing systems that would allow him to levitate that way - and the technology is far from available.

This is the problem with "thinking beyond" as you put it earlier. You allow yourself to believe the impossible or even the ridiculous simply because you WANT it to be more than trickery. This kind of thinking is what encourages many people to join cults with David Keresh, L. Ron Hubbard, and Jim Jones replacing Angel as the "Inspirational Leader".


Untrue. People follow what makes them feel strong, and as you've said they also pledge unyielding loyalty to it. This is a dangerous combination.


So was Mark Twain, but he managed to keep everything in perspective rather than believing or trying to "find something more" in everything that came along. As a literary genius he was also a massive skeptic - this skepticism is what led him to see the world as it truely was, rather than searching for additional meanings in it. His world view gave him the ability to write some of the greatest works in the literary world - containing some of the greatest advice men have passed to their next generation.


What you're describing now is 'pseudo philosophy'.
I'm not going to get into what that means, since your other statements don't coroberate that it's really what you're doing. Thus far, this is the first time you've claimed that you don't truely 'believe' and are simply using it as a mind game - hence why I don't beleive it.


Okay? You're using "think beyond" as a replacement for everything from philosophical strength to innovation through engineering - narrow the scope and decide what "thinking beyond" actually means.


There's a lesson to be laerned there.


Because we see you making a foolish descision and we want to prevent it, frankly, we're trying to help you.



Juliegel is right. There is no such thing as a cross between a magician and a layperson. And as Juliegel allude to, I'd like to know how much experience you have in magic before any kind of distinction is made as to which group you fit in.

dbaker_creator, I have one thing to say that I think you will like, and one thing you maybe won't, I don't know.

On the one hand you say many things that make sense and where I can see your knowledge and experience, and where I can accept that you're stating facts- I appreciate that, especially because many of the people here I discuss with only come up with personal opinions, including some immature or even insulting arguments and try to convince me that way. (Which is the reason why I sound a little pissed-off from time to time and feel the need to defend myself.) Some people claim to know everything, but without any back-up... not even Criss Angel does that, and we all know about his larger-than-life ego. That speaks for itself. But you state points that actually make sense and that I can respect.

On the other hand you called me presumptuous, while I could say the same thing about you referring to a captious sentence here and there from time to time. I mean, when it comes to opinions that have nothing to do with any facts in technique or magic experience, but rather with conclusions that come from a personal point of view.
I accept a lot of what you say, but please don't try to decry my philosophy or my personal reasons to like Criss Angel. I never said he's the best magician in the world or anything like that, but he is my favourite one. And for personal reasons he always will be, and I will always be loyal.

The bottom line is, I'd suggest we'll let this debate go for now. You said you're trying to help me- if you honestly mean that, thanks. But I find it presumptuous to think you "help" me by trying to convince me to turn away from Criss Angel. And you won't convince me in this case, because I take the meaning of the word loyal seriously and have my reasons to be a Loyal, like you have your reasons for disliking Criss. I never tried to convince anybody to become a Loyal. You and many other magicians here call the Loyal a cult, while they are actually the ones who sound like missionaries to me.
Just let it go, we don't have to argue about things like that.

My statements about your philosophical views as well as other things about your loyalty to Angel are based 1) in experience I have with people who follow the same school of thought you've claimed 2) in your own statements about your philosophy and thought process 3) in contradictions in your statements in this thread - 3 sources to come to a basic conclusion is hardly presumptuous.




Rephrased:
1: I don't want to talk about it.
2: I know you mean well,
3: but I don't want to be helped.
4: I'm not going to leave the cult because I don't want to.
5: I'm not telling you what to do, so don't tell me what to do.

Again, everything you say in reference to the Loyals and to your reasons for following Angel reinforce my accusations that it's a cult; and all of your comments above are typical of cult members when asked to leave a cult.

For future reference, "missionaries" aren't typical of cult practice. Cults are typically arranged as smaller groups that don't actively seek new members - kinda' like an internet group called the Loyals.

LoyalAnanya I respect your thoguhts and your opinions.
You speak very well and articulate your thoguhts an dopinions on paper better than I do and english is my first language haha. I believe what dbaker_creator means by tryng to hel p you is that he is tryng to clear a few hngs up for you about Criss. He can be very misleading and us as magicians believe that many loyals are loyals because they do not no the truth behing criss. I have heard many loyals say that criss is thebest magician and that he is revolutionizing the art of magic and we (magicians) being part of that art feel the oppiste and do what we can to clear things up.
I can't speak for dbaker as I am not him but I think this is what he means by help and from reading what you have said so far I think you'll understand how us magician feel.


Seab.McQuaid

Thank you sean, also for the compliment!
You're right, and as I said earlyer, by scrolling through the older posts here I saw a lot of arguments magicians stated for that matter and I understand them in some points.
But as you see in dbaker_creator's latest post, that's not what he meant... but I'm tired to even reply to that nonsense anymore, I've already said everything I had to say and will just take it with humor.
Though I think the reason you stated when it comes to real help by increasing someone's knowlegde is the main reason for many people. Unfortunately, when people's personal opinions are so contrary, debates easily run out of control and end up with personal fights... especially when they are annoyed because they already had the same discussions with different people over and over, and when it comes to a case like Criss Angel, this is true for both sides.

Haha I know and thats why I usually don't get involved in them anymore. I don't need to chane anyones mind. I will present my opinions and let them decide on wether they would like to agree with them or not. To be honest I dislike angel also but
I understand that you have your reasons for liking him as I have my reason for disliking him. I am not going to try to force you to dislke him. And thats why i wanted to try to help put dbaker by sayng what I said because he only means to help you understand the way that we feel and our side of it. And I think you understand so to post here any longer shall be a waste of time. So until next time...

Sean.McQuaid