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 Post subject: Criss used ....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Hypercards by Andrew Mayne. Is Andrew working with Criss? Or Did Criss steal the effect?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:12 am 
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Why is it "they're working together" or "he's a thief"? Is there no middle ground? He used an Omni Deck last week and he's used Gutbuster in the past. Criss uses plenty of real magic tricks on his shows. How does that make him a thief?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:09 am 
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This is stupid. Why is he stealing if he performed an effect that's been out on the magic market, free for anyone to buy, for so long? It doesn't matter who owns the effect, Criss does not need there permission to perform an effect that he paid money for.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:08 am 
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Exactly, if he paid for the secret, he deserves to use it on his show. Despite what the creator may think.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:04 am 
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I don't like criss very much but he's in his right to do whatever trick he payed for. It would be different if he was teaching it or something but he can perform it if he wants.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:16 pm 
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bucky310 wrote:
Exactly, if he paid for the secret, he deserves to use it on his show. Despite what the creator may think.


Wouldn't the creator like that? I mean, then some amateur magicians may go out and pick it up.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:34 pm 
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Yes he would like that. I never said he wouldn't, I was just going by bugzz' assumption that Andrew Mayne would be angry. And read my post carefully "Despite what the creator MAY think", not "Despite what the creator thinks".


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:48 pm 
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I'm not sure what the actual case law is on this issue, if there even is one; but let's look at it logically:

An effect is available on the market. I purchase the effect and perform it in most of my shows. I don't always have the opportunity to say, "this is called, 'Wowzers', by 'Pete Prestidigitation', (obviously made-up names). Furthermore, my audience doesn't give a flip. I'm paid for the gig. Am I therefore a theif? I paid the retail rate for the item, purchasing it from an authorized dealer or directly from the creator. Does that mean I cannot perform it while being taped on someone's vacation video? Does that mean I can only perform it in my living room for my dog? Does that mean that if I'm invited or featured on a broadcast television show doing magic that I can only perform tricks I created and built myself?

I dare say that if Criss Angel isn't saying, "I came up with the concept for this trick" or, "I made this trick" and then sell it with his name and image on it, then he's fully within his rights to perform a commonly marketed illusion on his show.

Copperfield does it. He's performed Sankey's "Airtight," Kevin James' floating rose, Doug Henning's water fountain levitation and many, many, MANY more illusions that were freely available in the local magic shops at the time. The only difference is that Copperfield will list the names of the creators, (though not associating them with the trick or naming the trick itself), in the credits at the end of his show. However, that's not always the case. He's performed a vanishing hanky illusion on television using a silk handkerchief and a Vernet FT. He didn't credit the originator of that illusion, give any history or mention Vernet. He did a $100 bill switch - twice - on T.V. using a TT. He didn't credit the originator of that illusion, (and I KNOW he knows who is credited with it), nor did he credit the maker of the TT.

I think one can use a commonly marketed illusion on televison without stating whose it is. Only magicians care and furthermore, it would just give the merely curious idiots who buy tricks, learn the secret then expose the method to anyone who will hold still long enough the precise name and/or inventor of the trick and make it that much easier for them to expose it. I think that's far more damaging than not crediting the creator/maker of the illusion on camera.

It may be the right thing to credit the illusion to its creator; but it certainly isn't the required thing. David Copperfield does it because he has class and ethics and respect for the art. Criss Angel apparently has none of those things. But considering how Mr. Angel - and his "Loyal" - are butchering the art of magic as of late, perhaps not crediting the creator of the illusions is a blessing in disguise.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:06 pm 
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RadioRob wrote:
I'm not sure what the actual case law is on this issue, if there even is one; but let's look at it logically:

An effect is available on the market. I purchase the effect and perform it in most of my shows. I don't always have the opportunity to say, "this is called, 'Wowzers', by 'Pete Prestidigitation', (obviously made-up names). Furthermore, my audience doesn't give a flip. I'm paid for the gig. Am I therefore a theif? I paid the retail rate for the item, purchasing it from an authorized dealer or directly from the creator. Does that mean I cannot perform it while being taped on someone's vacation video? Does that mean I can only perform it in my living room for my dog? Does that mean that if I'm invited or featured on a broadcast television show doing magic that I can only perform tricks I created and built myself?

I dare say that if Criss Angel isn't saying, "I came up with the concept for this trick" or, "I made this trick" and then sell it with his name and image on it, then he's fully within his rights to perform a commonly marketed illusion on his show.

Copperfield does it. He's performed Sankey's "Airtight," Kevin James' floating rose, Doug Henning's water fountain levitation and many, many, MANY more illusions that were freely available in the local magic shops at the time. The only difference is that Copperfield will list the names of the creators, (though not associating them with the trick or naming the trick itself), in the credits at the end of his show. However, that's not always the case. He's performed a vanishing hanky illusion on television using a silk handkerchief and a Vernet FT. He didn't credit the originator of that illusion, give any history or mention Vernet. He did a $100 bill switch - twice - on T.V. using a TT. He didn't credit the originator of that illusion, (and I KNOW he knows who is credited with it), nor did he credit the maker of the TT.

I think one can use a commonly marketed illusion on televison without stating whose it is. Only magicians care and furthermore, it would just give the merely curious idiots who buy tricks, learn the secret then expose the method to anyone who will hold still long enough the precise name and/or inventor of the trick and make it that much easier for them to expose it. I think that's far more damaging than not crediting the creator/maker of the illusion on camera.

It may be the right thing to credit the illusion to its creator; but it certainly isn't the required thing. David Copperfield does it because he has class and ethics and respect for the art. Criss Angel apparently has none of those things. But considering how Mr. Angel - and his "Loyal" - are butchering the art of magic as of late, perhaps not crediting the creator of the illusions is a blessing in disguise.


So I guess I'm butchering the art of magic, right? Come on, don't make assumptions. I love Criss, and I watch him every week, but that doesn't mean I don't take magic seriously. I'm a serious performer, and I get paid while I do it too. (Don't take that last sentence the wrong way. I'm not a full time worker or a professional by no means. I just stated that I earn money while doing it. Just wanted to let you all know before DerZauberer rips into me.)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:16 pm 
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yea i jumped to conclusions. I wasnt think i was typing. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:58 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
So I guess I'm butchering the art of magic, right? Come on, don't make assumptions.


I was pretty sure that I was fairly clear on who I was referencing when I said that. If you aren't the type that runs to the local magic shop to buy the latest trick you saw Crissy do on the magic box in your living room, only to learn it, perform it (poorly) for your three friends, (often posting said poor performance on the internet for the world to see), and then exposing the method to anyone who brings up Criss Angel, mentions - or worse, performs - that illusion or who discusses magic in general; then you need not feel offended. But those are just the type of people he and his Loyal are creating. I know. There have been few times in the last couple of years where, during a visit to a magic shop, some teen or barely-in-their-twenties person walked in and asked, "do you have that one trick? ...You know...the one Criss Angel did where he made the lady's ring go into an ice cube? What about the one where he made the two ripped business cards link?" ...Or something to that effect. I've also performed illusions similar to ones Criss has done and have had Angel-savvy folks yell out the method mid-performance because - as they almost always proudly proclaim - they have it at home. THAT is the kind of knucklehead his show and his following is breeding; and they are, indeed, butchering the art and the mystique of magic.

Now, if you have a guilty conscience and fall into that category, don't get all sarcastic and defensive with me because the light of reality was shone into your room of dark denial, shattering your self-created, self-maintained illusion of importance and superiority.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:18 pm 
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RadioRob wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
So I guess I'm butchering the art of magic, right? Come on, don't make assumptions.


I was pretty sure that I was fairly clear on who I was referencing when I said that. If you aren't the type that runs to the local magic shop to buy the latest trick you saw Crissy do on the magic box in your living room, only to learn it, perform it (poorly) for your three friends, (often posting said poor performance on the internet for the world to see), and then exposing the method to anyone who brings up Criss Angel, mentions - or worse, performs - that illusion or who discusses magic in general; then you need not feel offended. But those are just the type of people he and his Loyal are creating. I know. There have been few times in the last couple of years where, during a visit to a magic shop, some teen or barely-in-their-twenties person walked in and asked, "do you have that one trick? ...You know...the one Criss Angel did where he made the lady's ring go into an ice cube? What about the one where he made the two ripped business cards link?" ...Or something to that effect. I've also performed illusions similar to ones Criss has done and have had Angel-savvy folks yell out the method mid-performance because - as they almost always proudly proclaim - they have it at home. THAT is the kind of knucklehead his show and his following is breeding; and they are, indeed, butchering the art and the mystique of magic.

Now, if you have a guilty conscience and fall into that category, don't get all sarcastic and defensive with me because the light of reality was shone into your room of dark denial, shattering your self-created, self-maintained illusion of importance and superiority.


I am NOT like that what so ever. I would never reveal a magic secret to anyone, and I over practice all the time just to make sure I never do it poorly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
I'm a serious performer, and I get paid while I do it too. (Don't take that last sentence the wrong way. I'm not a full time worker or a professional by no means. I just stated that I earn money while doing it. Just wanted to let you all know before DerZauberer rips into me.)

You mean the full-time professional you called an "Old Man"?!? How about I rip into you for bringing up my name in a conversation I have nothing to do with?

Grow Up...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:05 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
I'm a serious performer, and I get paid while I do it too. (Don't take that last sentence the wrong way. I'm not a full time worker or a professional by no means. I just stated that I earn money while doing it. Just wanted to let you all know before DerZauberer rips into me.)

You mean the full-time professional you called an "Old Man"?!? How about I rip into you for bringing up my name in a conversation I have nothing to do with?

Grow Up...


I'm crying now. Listen, I'm not trying to start anything here, but you would of called me out on that, and you know it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
I'm a serious performer, and I get paid while I do it too. (Don't take that last sentence the wrong way. I'm not a full time worker or a professional by no means. I just stated that I earn money while doing it. Just wanted to let you all know before DerZauberer rips into me.)

You mean the full-time professional you called an "Old Man"?!? How about I rip into you for bringing up my name in a conversation I have nothing to do with?

Grow Up...


I'm crying now. Listen, I'm not trying to start anything here, but you would of called me out on that, and you know it.

You contradicted your statement. If you did not want to start anything, you should have stayed quiet.

"I know it?!" You know nothing about me or what motivates my actions. Never presume to predict what I do; once again you are proving that you are getting into battles without ammunition.


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