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 Post subject: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 27 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: New York City
I Had all of my magic stuff Books , Dvds etc in my Den and last week I had an electrical fire. Alot of my magic of my magic stuff went up in flames before I could put it out, and the stuff that wasnt burned got soaked from the fire being put out some of the stuff survived but I lost a good portion of my material. Luckily I keep a list of all my magic tricks, books and dvds that is in tact, I was thinking that i could torrent some or most of the stuff I lost , and burn and print out new copies of the Dvds and books, now I know that doing this is normally considered wrong but since I have bought the stuff already it would be like making a copy of the dvd. I feel this is an ok thing to do but I just wanted to see what you guys and girls thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:46 am 
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Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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Location: Milford OH
Sorry but you don't buy perpetual care when you purchase DVDs and magic books. Fires are a real bite but as long as you have a list put in a claim on your insurance to replace them.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 131
Location: Philippines
Well it would cost way too much to print out the books. If your filing an insurance claim I would let them pay for all of it. You have to add a little extra items because they depreciate it. If you are not making an insurance claim I would download the DVD's if possible and burn new ones. Is it ethical? I don't know because I wouldn't think about it long to know or care. But that is me. Your mileage may vary.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 402
Is it ethical? I'd say no. It's still stealing.

I hope you can get your stuff back through insurance. One thing you may want to consider as well is leaning on the magical community. If I had a fellow magician friend loose all their stuff that I may have had copies of my own, I'd find ways to share the knowledge.

-ArchAngel_G


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:29 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 1300
Location: New Jersey
Think of it this way; If you had a chair that went up in a fire, would it be ethical to steal a new chair? I think insurance is your best bet. Definitely sorry for your troubles though.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Joined: 27 Sep 2011
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Location: New York City
Tiggerkim , that argument is facetious , downloading a new copy of the dvd does not make the seller lose a copy of the dvd like they would lose a chair, they may lose a sale but that is completely different


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:11 pm 
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I think what maybe is being overlooked is that when you but a book, DVD, our what have you; you don't own the idea property. That is always owned by those who made it. Also, torenting is piracy. Piracy is theft.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:07 am 
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The_Subtle_Standini wrote:
Tiggerkim , that argument is facetious , downloading a new copy of the dvd does not make the seller lose a copy of the dvd like they would lose a chair, they may lose a sale but that is completely different
WRONG!!! It is exactly the same. How does the seller make his living? Buy selling DVDs, if you copy it you are a thief just like if someone stole your DVD that you bought.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:44 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 1394
Location: Newmarket, ON, Canada
paddy wrote:
The_Subtle_Standini wrote:
Tiggerkim , that argument is facetious , downloading a new copy of the dvd does not make the seller lose a copy of the dvd like they would lose a chair, they may lose a sale but that is completely different
WRONG!!! It is exactly the same. How does the seller make his living? Buy selling DVDs, if you copy it you are a thief just like if someone stole your DVD that you bought.


Agreed... it's exactly the same thing, a sale is a sale in this case. In my opinion it is unethical to download them. Seems like we won't be able to change your mind though, you seem to be pretty set on counter-arguing whatever we say.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 56
paddy wrote:
The_Subtle_Standini wrote:
Tiggerkim , that argument is facetious , downloading a new copy of the dvd does not make the seller lose a copy of the dvd like they would lose a chair, they may lose a sale but that is completely different
WRONG!!! It is exactly the same. How does the seller make his living? Buy selling DVDs, if you copy it you are a thief just like if someone stole your DVD that you bought.


I want to agree with you, but I can't. He didn't lose a physical item, just a reference to information he had already learned by purchasing it. The fact that he already owned it does not cost the seller anything because a purchase is not being circumnavigated - it already occurred. I don't believe you can put a price on knowledge twice; now THAT would be unethical

What would have been the difference if he had copied all his DVD's on portable hard drive in case of an emergency like this? Nothing - he'd plug it in to his new computer and replace the files. Voila, he just committed the same "heinous" act of downloading his lost DVD's

As for losing his books, there is no physical replacement of his books online. You can download the text but it will NEVER replace the value of the physical text in your hands. It is not unethical to download those either if you already purchased them, but I would not bother, personally. It isn't a matter of ethical concerns, but pragmatic ones. I like the idea of having the book in my hands and turning the page with my fingers (and the smell of the book), rather than clicking a button or swiping my hand over a touchpad

Losing the gimmicks is self explanatory though. You can make your own, but there is nothing better than buying high quality stuff that can't be replicated at home


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:19 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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Location: Visit my blog at magic-yeti.blogspot.com
I've spend some time studying this in my MBA program the last two semesters. I'm not sure there is a clear answer but I would lean towards ethical IF you had made a backup copy but unethical to download a "stolen" copy. The act of downloading the stolen copy is illegal. However, once you have the copy in your possession you technically have the right to view that intellectual property.

When you purchase a DVD you are buying a license to use that intellectual property. It is quite different from the chair example. You buy a chair you are buying a product that has no license or intellectual value. You don't buy the physical media for the media. The media is simply a method of storing or transferring the data that lies on the media. You are licensing one copy of the content for your personal use only. Courts have agreed that you can make one copy of a licensed software (electronic data or IP) as backup.

I think the most ethical approach would be to find someone with a copy, show them your burnt copy or receipt and then copy the DVD. You could also contact the publisher and ask for a replacement if you can prove that you purchased the original. Many software companies used to provide low cost replacement disks back in the days of floppy disks.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:10 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 131
Location: Philippines
For the books I would scour used book stores and ebay, and ebay's sister site half.com. <---- awesome site. You could download pdf's but they suck as a reference. Nothing beats holding a book in your hands. If the books are not rare you should be able to find inexpensive replacements.

Gimmicks and special decks you will either have to make your own or buy new ones.

You do have every legal right to make back up copies of your DVD's.

I do have copies of all my music (100 Gb) and magic disks (15) stored offsite, and about 1/4 of my movies but that is a long project (a little over 500 DVD movies). -not stolen- I shop a lot!

If you did backups, and stored them offsite, or in a fireproof safe, you would still have access to them. I would look at the torrents as the offsite storage and replace my copies. And sorry guys there is no sense arguing with me because I know me, that IS what I would do. There is no changing my mind. Well I would have to learn how to use torrent first...


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:33 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 1300
Location: New Jersey
paddy wrote:
The_Subtle_Standini wrote:
Tiggerkim , that argument is facetious , downloading a new copy of the dvd does not make the seller lose a copy of the dvd like they would lose a chair, they may lose a sale but that is completely different
WRONG!!! It is exactly the same. How does the seller make his living? Buy selling DVDs, if you copy it you are a thief just like if someone stole your DVD that you bought.

I believe I could tweak the analogy slightly. Imagine you broke into the furniture store and in some futuristic manor, cloned the chair.

1. You broke into the store (using websites which allow, endorse, and promote illegal activity in a participatory manor).

2. The furniture store is still losing a sale on that chair that you cloned.

I think the best thing to do would be to give insurance a go. If that doesn't work, I definitely feel your pain, but the only option I would feel morally right about doing would be to repurchase the effects. Another thing that I would suggest for next time, would be to make back up disks for your magic dvds. I burn mine, create new dvd's, then store the dvds in a safe place.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:46 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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When you bought the DVDs Books etc. You bought a licence to to the Intellectual Property created. Not the Intellectual property itself.

It is the Intellectual property licence that is bought, not the physical DVDs. As such i see no problem with downloading or burning a copy from a friend of the DVDs that you've lost or even copy the books themselves. IF you recall the secrets to the magic tricks themselves. If you have forgotten the secrets to the magic tricks then you have "lost the product" in the physical sense and you will need to buy them again.

The analogy of the chair is flawed as the product is no the DVDs and books but the secrets of the trick.


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 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:07 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 908
tiggerkim wrote:
The furniture store is still losing a sale on that chair that you cloned.



Essentially, you are saying that it is right for him to have to fork out another $30 (or whatever amount) for another copy of something he already purchased (money given to the creator) because of an unfortunate incident as a fire?

Not trying to cause a stir but see it from every angle and either way, it's not a fun position to be in.


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