View Cart | View Account | Help
Order by phone: 800-880-2592
Check out our favorite NEW ARRIVALS
Need it fast? Order before 4pm Eastern and your order ships SAME DAY.

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:48 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 2753
Honestly....do we really need to have this discussion? What I mean is....I have not performed Daniel Garcia's Fraud in years and yet I doubt I would have any trouble remaking the gimmick and performing it were the need to arise. And I really doubt I would need to watch the DVD again to do so. Just saying....once you learn the principle behind the effect and have practiced it enough it usually sticks in your memory.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:18 am 
Offline
Penguin

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 402
KrisDeagle wrote:
tiggerkim wrote:
The furniture store is still losing a sale on that chair that you cloned.



Essentially, you are saying that it is right for him to have to fork out another $30 (or whatever amount) for another copy of something he already purchased (money given to the creator) because of an unfortunate incident as a fire?

Not trying to cause a stir but see it from every angle and either way, it's not a fun position to be in.

No one has put it in such a facetious way. Many have suggested to do what you normally would do when you loose property due to a fire. Let insurance handle it.

There is typically little getting around it. Downloading via torrenting or P2P sharing is theft. Period. The ends don't justify the means. Find me a law professional who would disagree.

-ArchAngel_G


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:35 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 1300
Location: New Jersey
eostresh wrote:
Honestly....do we really need to have this discussion? What I mean is....I have not performed Daniel Garcia's Fraud in years and yet I doubt I would have any trouble remaking the gimmick and performing it were the need to arise. And I really doubt I would need to watch the DVD again to do so. Just saying....once you learn the principle behind the effect and have practiced it enough it usually sticks in your memory.

A lot of time if I'm looking for more material, I'll rewatch DVDs and reread books and think of new things or catch things in the original product which I never noticed before. I think something like Fraud would not be so bad seeing as it's a pretty cut and dry 1 trick DVD, but if I were to loose my Fantasio lecture which took place on the day I was born (exact day lol) and I could only even find in VHS then convert to DVD through a long annoying process, I would be kind of mad. There's some pretty interesting stuff on there which is kind of hard to find.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:39 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 908
ArchAngel_G wrote:
No one has put it in such a facetious way. Many have suggested to do what you normally would do when you loose property due to a fire. Let insurance handle it.

There is typically little getting around it. Downloading via torrenting or P2P sharing is theft. Period. The ends don't justify the means. Find me a law professional who would disagree.

-ArchAngel_G


Just remember, I do not condone piracy nor did I suggest for him to do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:19 pm 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 885
Location: Wood River, Illinois
It would be the same as if you broke a gimmick that you can not make, you would have to buy the effect again just to get the gimmick. Some effects you can just get another gimmick rather than getting the whole package deal, but most of the time the gimmick cost just about as much as the whole package, so it is just as well to by the whole thing again. I don't lke having to replace things anymore than the next guy, but if you want to continue to use the effect you just might have to repurchase the effect. The reason I guess that they charge as much as the original is that people would just buy the gimmick at the cheaper price and then try and work out the effect with no instructions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:28 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 872
ArchAngel_G wrote:
KrisDeagle wrote:
tiggerkim wrote:
The furniture store is still losing a sale on that chair that you cloned.



Essentially, you are saying that it is right for him to have to fork out another $30 (or whatever amount) for another copy of something he already purchased (money given to the creator) because of an unfortunate incident as a fire?

Not trying to cause a stir but see it from every angle and either way, it's not a fun position to be in.

No one has put it in such a facetious way. Many have suggested to do what you normally would do when you loose property due to a fire. Let insurance handle it.

There is typically little getting around it. Downloading via torrenting or P2P sharing is theft. Period. The ends don't justify the means. Find me a law professional who would disagree.

-ArchAngel_G


Find me a law professional who would agree.

regarding your comment in bold. I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Downloading via torrents or P2P is only theft if you don't own a licence to the intellectual property in the first place. The OP owns licence to the original intellectual property therefor he can download via torrents. To make this clear, you never own the trick, the trick is always owned by the creator unless specifically revoked and sold. You own a licence to perform the trick and the secret to it.


According to your logic, the ends just did justify the means. The ends of loosing a physical DVD justified the means to buy a new DVD even though the OP might own the intellectual property in the first place.


Let me give you a couple of scenarios:

If a person buys a magic DVD goes back home never opens the magic DVD and downloads the same one off torrent then it is legal. as long as he/she has the intention of keeping the bought DVD.

If a person buys a magic DVD then losses it on the way home without watching it, then downloads it from the same torrent it is illegal.

If a person has a magic DVD watched it then losses it (or house burns) he/she may download it off a torrent site legally, IF he/she remembers how to do the trick, as the intellectual property is not lost.

Unfortunately the whole issue of Ethics has been distorted in our culturally relative world. It makes me happy to read all these posts about ethics regarding illusions or tricks, but when it comes down to it most people don't have any ethics these days. Abortion, murder, death penalty etc...

It is funny how when a high level of ethics can make money for certain individuals that the mainstream maintain these ethics, however when a low level of ethics makes money for certain individuals the mainstream accepts them.

Unfortunately many simple IR laws are misinterpreted in the magic community.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:35 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 918
Location: Visit my blog at magic-yeti.blogspot.com
eostresh wrote:
Honestly....do we really need to have this discussion? What I mean is....I have not performed Daniel Garcia's Fraud in years and yet I doubt I would have any trouble remaking the gimmick and performing it were the need to arise. And I really doubt I would need to watch the DVD again to do so. Just saying....once you learn the principle behind the effect and have practiced it enough it usually sticks in your memory.


You're memory is much better than mine! I go back and refer to the source of tricks that I have not performed in quite some time. Think about the type of DVD like the Allen Ackerman Advanced Control series. I don't go through the entire 7 DVD series and memorize each sleight taught; that would take months or even years. I pull out one of the DVDs when looking for a sleight or idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 am 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 918
Location: Visit my blog at magic-yeti.blogspot.com
zambini wrote:
It would be the same as if you broke a gimmick that you can not make, you would have to buy the effect again just to get the gimmick. Some effects you can just get another gimmick rather than getting the whole package deal, but most of the time the gimmick cost just about as much as the whole package, so it is just as well to by the whole thing again. I don't lke having to replace things anymore than the next guy, but if you want to continue to use the effect you just might have to repurchase the effect. The reason I guess that they charge as much as the original is that people would just buy the gimmick at the cheaper price and then try and work out the effect with no instructions.


Apples and oranges! A gimmick is not a license for intellectual property. A license is a very specific legal entity that is completely unlike buying a book or a chair or a manufactured gimmick. DVDs are typically licensed content. You have purchased the right to own and use that content.

Now here is where the law has not kept up with the technology. You don't have a right to receive stolen property. I daresay that most bit torrents are pirated copies. Therefore, you have a right to use the copy of the stolen material but you may have broken the law by the act of downloading a stolen copy from a P2P or a torrent. The act of downloading a torrent is not, in itself, an illegal activity. Lots of gray leagl areas here that keep many lawyers employed!

Solution? Major DVD publishers (not retailers like Penguin) will replace a damaged DVD for a small fee to cover the media cost and shipping. Check with the publisher as they may have a replacement policy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:25 pm 
User avatar
Offline
born to perform.

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 2753
tbwendt wrote:
eostresh wrote:
Honestly....do we really need to have this discussion? What I mean is....I have not performed Daniel Garcia's Fraud in years and yet I doubt I would have any trouble remaking the gimmick and performing it were the need to arise. And I really doubt I would need to watch the DVD again to do so. Just saying....once you learn the principle behind the effect and have practiced it enough it usually sticks in your memory.


You're memory is much better than mine! I go back and refer to the source of tricks that I have not performed in quite some time. Think about the type of DVD like the Allen Ackerman Advanced Control series. I don't go through the entire 7 DVD series and memorize each sleight taught; that would take months or even years. I pull out one of the DVDs when looking for a sleight or idea.


Yep...I think I was thinking mostly of single effect DVDs. I do refer back to exactly the DVD set you mentioned from time to time(Allan Ackerman's) When it comes to Multi-effect/move magic sources I am heavily biased towards books. I drift back to Erdnase, Earick, Asher's booklets and Daniel Madison's books quite often. But if those burned up on me....well the only option really would be to buy a new one. My biggest reason to want to replace DVDs, were they to get torched, would be for the entertainment value. I have learned everything I intend to use off of Lee Asher's Five Card Stud but it is still fun to watch.

Just a general note to all. It seems that this thread has drifted from it's original question....an "ethical" discussion....into a "legal" discussion. Reminder to all that those two are often quite different discussions. To borrow from the world of politics, Congressman Weiner lost his job because of an unethical action, however, because his action was not technically illegal he is not in jail. Congressman "Duke" Cunningham committed an act that not only lost him his job but got him tossed in jail.

We as Magicians have the right to set the ethics of our own community. Those ethics can go above and beyond the law if we so chose. To understand where magicians draw that line one merely needs to tally up the opinions of the majority of the folks who have posted on this thread. I also regularly post on two other magic forums and I would guess that the opinions on this forum reflect the opinions of the community at large.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:12 am 
Offline
Penguin

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 402
Honestly if I sold magic, and some one came to me with a story like this, I'd help replace what I could so long as it did not adversely affect my revenue. But I'd also suggest leaning a bit on the magical community and clubs. Once the secret is known, it's not a big deal to share resources on it.

I just have a big hang up on torrents because we know people don't put those files up for the unfortunate magician who looses his sources in a fire. They put them up so people can get the information for free.

-ArchAngel_G


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would This Be Considered Unehtical?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:06 pm 
Offline
Penguin

Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 131
Location: Philippines
ArchAngel_G wrote:
I just have a big hang up on torrents because we know people don't put those files up for the unfortunate magician who looses his sources in a fire. They put them up so people can get the information for free.

-ArchAngel_G


True. But if I already paid for it I would use the available resource to replace it. I know they didn't post it for the unfortunate magician but if I were in that situation I would just be glad it was available. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2009 Penguin Magic, Inc.