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 Post subject: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Well I'd really like to get into both card magic and card flourishes (fancy cuts and shuffles and the works).

Is it a bad idea to start learning fancy cuts and shuffles before getting a grounding in the magic aspect of cards? Or is it okay because Cardistry really isn't an aspect of magic, but a completely separate hobby? (This is my mindset).


Also, what would be a good place to start learning the basics in card flourishes n' whatnot?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:52 pm 
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I don't think it should be a big deal. Cardistry will build your "feel" for the cards. That in turn will help you learn moves with less headache.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:42 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
I don't think it should be a big deal. Cardistry will build your "feel" for the cards. That in turn will help you learn moves with less headache.

Excellent.

Any ideas for a good place to start?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Learn the Sybil. There may be some free downloads of it somewhere? It was first published in Chris Kenner's Totally Out of Control. Anyways find the Sybil someplace. Once you get that down start looking at clips of Daniel Madison, the Buck twins, and Andrei Jihk. Each of these guys have their own version of "intro to cardistry" DVDs. Decide on whos style you like the most and go with that one. I started with Dan and Dave On-demands and then got Daniel Madison's Motion:Dangerous DVD. I prefer DM's style but I started with the Bucks. I have seen Andrei Jihk's DVD and it is good....it just isn't my style.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:28 am 
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Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes by Jerry Cestkowski
Xtreme Beginners by De'vo
Genesis by Andrei Jikh

I always thought of the Buck twins and Daniel Madison more intermediate than beginner, but its your call. The System, The Trilogy, and Lethal all have good material.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:15 pm 
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TeKNoSTyLeZ wrote:
Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes by Jerry Cestkowski
Xtreme Beginners by De'vo
Genesis by Andrei Jikh

I always thought of the Buck twins and Daniel Madison more intermediate than beginner, but its your call. The System, The Trilogy, and Lethal all have good material.

That is what I was thinking after watching the trailers.
I think Genesis v1 looks pretty good, not entirely sure, though, yet. I guess whatever I choose will be good, but I'm wondering which has the best teaching? (I've heard good things about Andrei Jikh's teaching, but which is best? In your opinion.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:30 pm 
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TeKNoSTyLeZ wrote:

I always thought of the Buck twins and Daniel Madison more intermediate than beginner, but its your call. The System, The Trilogy, and Lethal all have good material.

LOL So that's why it was so hard!


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Here's my two cents: There are a few different types of visual card sleights (i.e. sleights that the audience sees, rather than the hidden kind that they're not supposed to see):

  1. card flourishes like certain cuts and shuffles, which aren't in any way magical.
  2. card manipulations, which are supposed to be magical, but the audience secretly knows exactly what you're doing.
  3. card sleights, like colour changes, which are magical

If you perform tricks that are magic (i.e. defy the laws of physics) you'll probably want to learn sleights from the third category: If you perform tricks that are technically not magic (i.e. defy the laws of probability and statistics), only then do I think that learning skills in the first category is worth it.

I'll also say, don't add visual pizzazz to a trick just for the sake of making it more visually impressive, if it detracts from the story. It's easy to imagine, for example, a movie with lots of special effects but a mediocre story vs. a movie with no visual effects but a great story: the second one will always be better of the two. If the visual sleights add to the story, however, go right ahead and include them.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Lawboy wrote:
Here's my two cents: There are a few different types of visual card sleights (i.e. sleights that the audience sees, rather than the hidden kind that they're not supposed to see):

  1. card flourishes like certain cuts and shuffles, which aren't in any way magical.
  2. card manipulations, which are supposed to be magical, but the audience secretly knows exactly what you're doing.
  3. card sleights, like colour changes, which are magical

If you perform tricks that are magic (i.e. defy the laws of physics) you'll probably want to learn sleights from the third category: If you perform tricks that are technically not magic (i.e. defy the laws of probability and statistics), only then do I think that learning skills in the first category is worth it.

I'm interested in all three, to be honest. I do other things, like juggle and poi (ocassionally), and I see cardistry falling into this category.

Quote:
I'll also say, don't add visual pizzazz to a trick just for the sake of making it more visually impressive, if it detracts from the story. It's easy to imagine, for example, a movie with lots of special effects but a mediocre story vs. a movie with no visual effects but a great story: the second one will always be better of the two. If the visual sleights add to the story, however, go right ahead and include them.

As I said before, I look at cardistry more as a hobby outside the realm of magic. So the purpose is not to add pizzas (jk, pizazz) to my magic. Its just to impress people (and myself) for what it is, separate from magic. However, I do think it will, in some ways, be incorporated into my magic.

With that being said, what would you suggest/recommend?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Law Boy has some points that you must be aware of but they are not rules that must be followed. Magicians need to give audiences credit and most of the "don't mix magic and flourishing" arguements are built on a faulty premise. The idea that a flourish demonstrates skill and thus tips the fact that you are doing sleight of hand and not magic. Problem is, when you use cards, the audience knows you are doing sleight of hand. It doesn't matter if you are doing flourishy or non flourishy magic, if you use cards they know they are watching sleight of hand. It is one of the main reasons so many top mentalists steer clear from card effects, or at least use them sparingly. When you see guys like David Berglas or Derren Brown use card effects they generally do everything they can to give the appearance that they hardly touched the pack. That's because every second you touch the pack the spectators are subconsciously wondering what sleight of hand you may be doing.

When you decide whether to add a flourish to magic, or not to add a flourish to magic, worry less about the perception of sleight of hand and more about the "flow" of the effect. For instance, I have two ACRs. One culminated in card to wallet and the other finishes with Josh Jays, "The Big Deal." The Big Deal ends by finding their card and then dealing out a perfect black jack hand, a perfect poker hand, and a perfect bridge hand. Because I'm "dealing gambling hands" it works well to add flourishy cuts because the theme is control of the deck. My card to wallet ACR is meant to look clean and direct. A simple three phase ACR that culminates with the card to wallet. It isn't that the ACR looks like real magic, it looks like sleight of hand, but adding flourishes would take away from the simple directness of the routine.

Just a note- Lawboy certainly didn't say that you shouldn't add the two together so I am not trying to imply that he did. It merely touched on a topic that gets bantered around a lot so I thought I would add my take on the issue. All and all Lawboy has some very good points.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:07 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Law Boy has some points that you must be aware of but they are not rules that must be followed. Magicians need to give audiences credit and most of the "don't mix magic and flourishing" arguements are built on a faulty premise. The idea that a flourish demonstrates skill and thus tips the fact that you are doing sleight of hand and not magic. Problem is, when you use cards, the audience knows you are doing sleight of hand. It doesn't matter if you are doing flourishy or non flourishy magic, if you use cards they know they are watching sleight of hand. It is one of the main reasons so many top mentalists steer clear from card effects, or at least use them sparingly. When you see guys like David Berglas or Derren Brown use card effects they generally do everything they can to give the appearance that they hardly touched the pack. That's because every second you touch the pack the spectators are subconsciously wondering what sleight of hand you may be doing.

When you decide whether to add a flourish to magic, or not to add a flourish to magic, worry less about the perception of sleight of hand and more about the "flow" of the effect. For instance, I have two ACRs. One culminated in card to wallet and the other finishes with Josh Jays, "The Big Deal." The Big Deal ends by finding their card and then dealing out a perfect black jack hand, a perfect poker hand, and a perfect bridge hand. Because I'm "dealing gambling hands" it works well to add flourishy cuts because the theme is control of the deck. My card to wallet ACR is meant to look clean and direct. A simple three phase ACR that culminates with the card to wallet. It isn't that the ACR looks like real magic, it looks like sleight of hand, but adding flourishes would take away from the simple directness of the routine.

Just a note- Lawboy certainly didn't say that you shouldn't add the two together so I am not trying to imply that he did. It merely touched on a topic that gets bantered around a lot so I thought I would add my take on the issue. All and all Lawboy has some very good points.

Well thank you very much for your words of advice and wisdom.

But I ask again, where do you think I should start to get a solid grounding in cardistry? Should I get Genisis v1? Or should I get something else?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Flappy2 wrote:
Well thank you very much for your words of advice and wisdom.

But I ask again, where do you think I should start to get a solid grounding in cardistry? Should I get Genisis v1? Or should I get something else?

I started to learn before Genesis was released and after TechnostyleZ mentioned his recommendations I'd have to say that that would have been a good starting point. I don't have the other two resources so I can't really comment.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Flappy2 wrote:
But I ask again, where do you think I should start to get a solid grounding in cardistry? Should I get Genisis v1? Or should I get something else?


The three I listed will all give you a good foundation, just watch the trailers and decide what you really want to learn.

Although I can't say whether The Encyclopedia is truly the best place to start, but I feel it's important to know that it's probably the single largest source of flourishes you can buy due to being a book. Because of the wide range of topics, (one/two handed cuts, springs, shuffles, armspreads, fans, etc) it's absolutely a must buy if you want a broad scope of playing card flourishes regardless if you're a beginner, intermediate, or advanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good idea?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:28 pm 
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TeKNoSTyLeZ wrote:
Flappy2 wrote:
But I ask again, where do you think I should start to get a solid grounding in cardistry? Should I get Genisis v1? Or should I get something else?


The three I listed will all give you a good foundation, just watch the trailers and decide what you really want to learn.

Although I can't say whether The Encyclopedia is truly the best place to start, but I feel it's important to know that it's probably the single largest source of flourishes you can buy due to being a book. Because of the wide range of topics, (one/two handed cuts, springs, shuffles, armspreads, fans, etc) it's absolutely a must buy if you want a broad scope of playing card flourishes regardless if you're a beginner, intermediate, or advanced.

I ended up ordering Genesis v1. (I think this one appealed to me the most.)

I do plan to get the Encyclopedia in the future, though. Thanks for your help. And if you have any other suggestions/recommendations, please, let me know.


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