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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:38 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
fallingblood wrote:
Because the majority of people don't deserve to make money off the little knowledge that they have. Magic is for entertainment. Just because you can do magic, does not mean you should be paid.


That's a bit cynical. Acting is for entertainment, playing music is for entertainment, dancing is for entertainment, being funny, of course, is for entertainment. They're all things that people are willing to pay to see. Why not take advantage of that?


and they hone thier skills for years before making money (most of the time.)
they practice a whole lot more than most of the poeple here. They have to work their way up.
I have alot of friends in these fields- acting, music, comedy- they didnt start making money in a year, or even two. Some have been taking classes and practicing since they were little kids.

Being able to do magic is nothing special, the art of using it to entertain is though. Any body can do at least a few magic effects, but to be able to entertain people is the key. Which takes time and lots of practice.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:56 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
fallingblood wrote:
Because the majority of people don't deserve to make money off the little knowledge that they have. Magic is for entertainment. Just because you can do magic, does not mean you should be paid.


That's a bit cynical. Acting is for entertainment, playing music is for entertainment, dancing is for entertainment, being funny, of course, is for entertainment. They're all things that people are willing to pay to see. Why not take advantage of that?
People also pay to see sex. People also pay to have others killed. People also pay for drugs. So why not take advantages out of that? Just because you can make money from something, doesn't mean you deserve to. Just because someone can do a couple of magic tricks, doesn't mean they should be paid to do so. Magic is an art, and it should be treated as such. It's for entertainment, and should not be done just to make money.

Like any other profession, you have to work up to being paid. You wouldn't want some one who just started medical school to do brain surgery on you. Why should it be different for magic? If you're going to use it as your profession, then treat it like a profession.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:22 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
fallingblood wrote:
Because the majority of people don't deserve to make money off the little knowledge that they have. Magic is for entertainment. Just because you can do magic, does not mean you should be paid.


That's a bit cynical. Acting is for entertainment, playing music is for entertainment, dancing is for entertainment, being funny, of course, is for entertainment. They're all things that people are willing to pay to see. Why not take advantage of that?


People are willing to pay to see these things if they're done well. But most of the paid performers in these disciplines didn't start out as paid performers; they worked their way up in some fashion.

Actors take acting classes and perform in school/community theatre. Dancers take dance lessons and give recitals, as do many musicians. Comedians try out their sets on preordained open mic nights at comedy clubs (some even apprentice other, more experienced comedians first.)

If someone were to memorize Hamlet's soliloquy then show up at an audition expecting to be referred to and paid as a professional actor they would quickly be shown the door. Unfortunately, this is how many beginner magicians are approaching restaurant magic. They learn a few tricks, maybe even show them to a few people, then figure, Hey, I'm ready! Best case scenario: the restaurant manager sees through this and says "no thanks." Worst case: they get the job, perform horribly, and convince the manager that magic has no place in a restaurant.

Restaurant magic is not a beginner's launchpad; it's a profession to work up to. There are plenty of ways to start doing magic outside of restaurants: family shows, volunteering in hospitals and senior citizen centers, etc. There are also "regular" jobs that one can take to further prepare for a restaurant gig---being a waiter and/or working a retail job come to mind. Not to mention, there are plenty of resources put out that teach both the basic and finer points of restaurant magic. Someone who comes onto these boards and asks when to approach a table and how to structure a routine is not ready to be a paid performer. Such people can come to be ready, but they must be willing to pay their dues to learn their lessons.

People can ignore bad actors, musicians, comedians, etc. because they have plenty of access to good ones in the mainstream media. Few people encounter magicians on a daily basis, and so their opinion of one can affect their opinion on magic as a whole. It is the magician who recognizes this and takes the proper steps to become a paid performer that shows respect for his fellow magicians, and that is the kind of performer that will in turn be shown respect by his peers.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:22 pm 
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(sorry, double post)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:19 pm 
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I'll agree that, morally, some people don't deserve to get paid for certain things, but that isn't going to stop them from taking advantage. Like I said, if people are willing to pay to see it, then it's fair to take advantage of that. And if you think that's disrespectful, then that's fine, it probably is, but that's no reason to push that view onto everyone else by advising them against getting jobs, and getting paid for doing something that they want to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:19 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
I'll agree that, morally, some people don't deserve to get paid for certain things, but that isn't going to stop them from taking advantage. Like I said, if people are willing to pay to see it, then it's fair to take advantage of that. And if you think that's disrespectful, then that's fine, it probably is, but that's no reason to push that view onto everyone else by advising them against getting jobs, and getting paid for doing something that they want to do.
But he did ask for help, and that's what we are doing. No one told him not to be a magician, we told him not now, research instead, and make yourself better. This way, he will be able to handle it, and actually succeed. This is the real world, not everyone is nice. And if he would go out without knowing what he was doing, he would be torn to pieces.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:50 pm 
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so what are you saying exactly Atticus? Scam people out of their money for a bad performance?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:37 am 
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vstrunk817 wrote:
so what are you saying exactly Atticus? Scam people out of their money for a bad performance?


You can look at it that way. But why does everyone always assume that a beginning magician will give such a terrible performance?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:41 am 
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fallingblood wrote:
But he did ask for help, and that's what we are doing. No one told him not to be a magician, we told him not now, research instead, and make yourself better. This way, he will be able to handle it, and actually succeed. This is the real world, not everyone is nice. And if he would go out without knowing what he was doing, he would be torn to pieces.


Why not let him "go out there", so he can see what it's like for himself instead of telling him that he'll be "ripped apart", stabbed, raped and spat on. If it doesn't go well, then he'll have an experience he can base things on. That way, at least, when he gives a good performance he'll know it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:40 am 
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Hi guys! I've been studying anatomy for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some surgical devices from a local discount medical supply store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of the human body, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to operate. Does anybody have any good ideas what hospital I should go and apply for?

Hi guys! I've been studying magic for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some tricks from a local discount magic store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of magic, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to perform. Does anybody have any good ideas what restaurant I should go and apply for?


Why does one sound more ridiculous than the other?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 am 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
vstrunk817 wrote:
so what are you saying exactly Atticus? Scam people out of their money for a bad performance?
You can look at it that way. But why does everyone always assume that a beginning magician will give such a terrible performance?


Experience. we have all been beginners and we gave bad performances. There is no way a neophyte can be good.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:13 am 
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jamesjay1 wrote:
Hi guys! I've been studying anatomy for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some surgical devices from a local discount medical supply store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of the human body, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to operate. Does anybody have any good ideas what hospital I should go and apply for?

Hi guys! I've been studying magic for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some tricks from a local discount magic store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of magic, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to perform. Does anybody have any good ideas what restaurant I should go and apply for?


Why does one sound more ridiculous than the other?


Hah. That made me LOL. Nice point.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:29 am 
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jamesjay1 wrote:
Hi guys! I've been studying anatomy for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some surgical devices from a local discount medical supply store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of the human body, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to operate. Does anybody have any good ideas what hospital I should go and apply for?

Hi guys! I've been studying magic for about a year now. I've got a few books on it, and I've purchased some tricks from a local discount magic store. Wow! So much to choose from!

Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of magic, and I've seen LOTS of shows on the Discovery Channel. I think I'm ready to perform. Does anybody have any good ideas what restaurant I should go and apply for?


Why does one sound more ridiculous than the other?


Funny. Although the difference is, in the first example you risk killing someone. The world doesn't implode if someone gives a bad performance in magic.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:37 am 
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paddy wrote:
Experience. we have all been beginners and we gave bad performances.


True, we have all given bad performances, and we all ended up seeing what was wrong with them and have improved because of that. Telling a beginner not to perform publicly because he won't be good enough yet doesn't help; he needs to perform so he can get good.

"There is no way a neophyte can be good." That's just being prejudice.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:17 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
paddy wrote:
Experience. we have all been beginners and we gave bad performances.


True, we have all given bad performances, and we all ended up seeing what was wrong with them and have improved because of that. Telling a beginner not to perform publicly because he won't be good enough yet doesn't help; he needs to perform so he can get good.

"There is no way a neophyte can be good." That's just being prejudice.
A beginner will benefit more from taking advice, practicing, and researching magic. This way, when he does his first show, it won't be so bad, and he come out with a bad reputation.

And Jamesjay's comparision does work. It's the same thing. You have to know what you are doing before you try to make something your profession.


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