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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:23 am 
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If they are mature, they won't respond in an immature way. Teenagers(for the most part) don't know how to take criticism, therefore they aren't ready for a harsh environment with hecklers and the like.

I'm getting really annoyed at the fact that everyone thinks that they need to get a job in magic right away. If you truly respect the art, you'll wait until you've matured enough, magically and personally. If you're 17 or under, you shouldn't be doing restaurant walkaround professionally. Are there exceptions to this rule? Yes, but those people who are exceptions don't ask "Am I ready?" "What tricks should I do?" or "How do I get a job at a restaurant". They read books, watch videos, and talk to other pros.

Second pet peeve: There are books called "The Restaurant Worker's Handbook" and "Making a Living Entertaining in Restaurants", and people still come to the forums asking 100's of questions that these books answer. If some people did literally 5 minutes of research on their own, they could find multiple resources with everything they need.


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 Post subject: Re: A note on experience and maturity
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:59 am 
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jackpot6200 wrote:
wayno wrote:
Had the kid been mature enough, and had enough business experience, he would have known that he did not have a product to sell, and should have turned down the gig.


Actually I don't believe he should have turned down the gig because it was what ended up really getting him noticed in magic.


The ends do not justify the means. Because he is well known and sucessfull now, doesn't mean anything. First off, I doubt he wouldn't be as well known now. I know of several magicians who are very well known and it happened through hard work, determination, and a strong commitment to this art. Not by a stroke of luck (if you want to call it that. I call it a stroke of desperation on the part of therestaurant management) guided by a couple peoples' misfortune. And I guarantee you that anyone in this art, WILL become well known and sucessfull through hard work, determination, and a dedication to this art. Something that this person never had to prove, to land a gig. I sincerely hope his outlook on this art (not profession, I will go onto that in a second) has changed in a positive way.

I say not profession, because anyone who knows a few tricks can get a job performing magic because there is no governing body that regulates this art, and the people hiring in most cases, don't know the difference between someone who knows some tricks, and a magician.

Just think of how many kids land "gigs" performing at birthday parties because some parent seen them perform a couple tricks. :roll: Just think how many kids and adults land strolling gigs because some adult who doesn't know any better, hires them to perform some magic after seeing them perform a couple tricks?

8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:56 am 
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miniserb725 wrote:
If they are mature, they won't respond in an immature way. Teenagers(for the most part) don't know how to take criticism, therefore they aren't ready for a harsh environment with hecklers and the like.

I'm getting really annoyed at the fact that everyone thinks that they need to get a job in magic right away. If you truly respect the art, you'll wait until you've matured enough, magically and personally. If you're 17 or under, you shouldn't be doing restaurant walkaround professionally. Are there exceptions to this rule? Yes, but those people who are exceptions don't ask "Am I ready?" "What tricks should I do?" or "How do I get a job at a restaurant". They read books, watch videos, and talk to other pros.

Second pet peeve: There are books called "The Restaurant Worker's Handbook" and "Making a Living Entertaining in Restaurants", and people still come to the forums asking 100's of questions that these books answer. If some people did literally 5 minutes of research on their own, they could find multiple resources with everything they need.


or they are intimitated by people who are more straight foreward or blunt in thier responses so they something immature

and because people respond "in an immature way" doesnt mean that they cant handle hecklers and such in real life......all im saying is that i dont think its fair to judge someone from what they say on a forum

edited, someone could come on here and act REALLY immature but in real life they are a great performer who CAN deal with hecklers, has work


so i think before someone answeres to a thread where its pretty clear that the person is new to the forums we should just ask

how long have you been into magic
what type of magic are you most interested in
have you performed publicly for people
have you ever had to deal with a heckler


and ofcourse it matters what thread it is, and what the person is asking for

BUT i think those would be good questions to get the performer bettter


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Guardian452 wrote:
or they are intimitated by people who are more straight foreward or blunt in thier responses so they something immature


Which shows immaturity. The truth hurts sometimes, but its the TRUTH. If they can't accept honest answers, they can't perform at restaurants. It's not fair to the restaurant, the customers, or other magicians in that area if someone gets a job with an unfinished product.

Guardian452 wrote:
and because people respond "in an immature way" doesnt mean that they cant handle hecklers and such in real life......all im saying is that i dont think its fair to judge someone from what they say on a forum


So when they get criticism from someone on a forum, they get defensive and act immaturely. So how can we assume they'll handle it in real life? Probably the same way, defensively and immaturely.

That's the only way we can judge them. People need to realize that what you say on this forum is the only insight we have into who you are. So I think it's entirely fair.

Guardian452 wrote:
edited, someone could come on here and act REALLY immature but in real life they are a great performer who CAN deal with hecklers, has work


Why? What is the point in that?

Plus, maturity doesn't only apply to hecklers, it applies to dealing with the management, booking a show, and pretty much every aspect of restaurant work, not just performing.

Guardian452 wrote:
so i think before someone answeres to a thread where its pretty clear that the person is new to the forums we should just ask

how long have you been into magic
what type of magic are you most interested in
have you performed publicly for people
have you ever had to deal with a heckler


Ok, my problem with this is, people have been in magic for a year. They come here and say "I wanna work at a restaurant, how do I do it?". My new answer for this is going to be the same. Go buy a book or two on it, and read them. If these kids really want to work in a restaurant, they can do some research on their own instead of being spoon-fed information from the forums. I'm sorry (not really), but why should we have to give this information when it's readily available with a little work on their part.

Guardian452 wrote:
and ofcourse it matters what thread it is, and what the person is asking for

BUT i think those would be good questions to get the performer bettter


I agree that we should learn more about these people to help them, but they aren't even trying to help themselves, they're just coming here and asking as their only research. I passed up the first 2 jobs I was offered because I needed more experience and more information in the field. After I turned those down, I bought all the Kid's Show material I could. I read and watched more than I ever wanted to, and I applied that information. The 5 birthday parties I've done since have been huge successes. Why? Because I researched and found out everything I needed to know.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 pm 
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miniserb725 wrote
Quote:
Ok, my problem with this is, people have been in magic for a year. They come here and say "I wanna work at a restaurant, how do I do it?".


Yep, that is THE problem. Kids buy some gimmicks and think life is easy and they can play and make money. So what do they do? They come onto a forum where no one knows them and they can not see or know us and ask "How do I get a job?" Now THINK about this, they have never seen a restaurant magician before. They just saw a forum about it and they want to be a restaurant magician. Not knowing nor even caring about what it is they want to do it. That is like someone listens to music and decides that being a musician is easy so he'll try it. (Bad example because it is similar to what we listen to.) How about watching a TV show about medicine and suddenly asking, "How do I open my surgical office?" Yes if you think that sounds stupid, what do you think we professional magicians think of your attitude. "Gee I saw David Blaine so I'm going to work restaurants."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:38 pm 
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I agree with miniserb and paddy.

Paddy does come off as blunt, and sometimes it seems like he's quite harsh. However, he's being nicer then many hecklers would in real life. He's trying to help, hecklers, for the most part, aren't. I mean, if people can deal with the help that Paddy is giving, then how can they expect to deal with a heckler, who is trying to tear them down? The logical answer is that they can't.

Being a magician means you have to deal with many different types of people. Some people are going to be complete [edited], just because that's how they are. So if people can't deal with a person trying to help, it's illogical to believe they can deal with someone who is just trying to be a [edited].


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:11 pm 
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ah, i see what you guys mean now :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:33 pm 
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wayno wrote:
The ends do not justify the means. Because he is well known and sucessfull now, doesn't mean anything. First off, I doubt he wouldn't be as well known now. I know of several magicians who are very well known and it happened through hard work, determination, and a strong commitment to this art. Not by a stroke of luck (if you want to call it that. I call it a stroke of desperation on the part of therestaurant management) guided by a couple peoples' misfortune. And I guarantee you that anyone in this art, WILL become well known and sucessfull through hard work, determination, and a dedication to this art. Something that this person never had to prove, to land a gig. I sincerely hope his outlook on this art (not profession, I will go onto that in a second) has changed in a positive way.

I say not profession, because anyone who knows a few tricks can get a job performing magic because there is no governing body that regulates this art, and the people hiring in most cases, don't know the difference between someone who knows some tricks, and a magician.

Just think of how many kids land "gigs" performing at birthday parties because some parent seen them perform a couple tricks. Just think how many kids and adults land strolling gigs because some adult who doesn't know any better, hires them to perform some magic after seeing them perform a couple tricks?



I see your point, but I still think in the end it was best that he took the gig. He may have had to learn the hard way, but he's had such a successful career at that particular restaurant so it's hard to say he shouldn't have done it. Just my opinion.


miniserb725 wrote:
There are books called "The Restaurant Worker's Handbook" and "Making a Living Entertaining in Restaurants", and people still come to the forums asking 100's of questions that these books answer. If some people did literally 5 minutes of research on their own, they could find multiple resources with everything they need.


Amen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
How about watching a TV show about medicine and suddenly asking, "How do I open my surgical office?" Yes if you think that sounds stupid, what do you think we professional magicians think of your attitude. "Gee I saw David Blaine so I'm going to work restaurants."


Still. You don't have to yell at them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:23 pm 
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Quote:
personally (now) dont think its fair to judge if a kid is mature or not by a forum


weve never seen him perform for others so we have no way of knowing how mature he is by an online forum



Thank you


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 pm 
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I totally agree with much of the post put in that thread. A bit ago I learned the hard way that I wasen't good enough to perform for people. To make it short, my performance was horrible... Then I started to realise that i was not as good as I expected, I started to take the critism of Pro's here, Listening to everyting, One year after I got my first hat... So please stop thinking that you are a god ,and listen to the pro's they know what they do, even if it may sound weird to you sometimes everything they say is right.

blizt :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:54 pm 
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AtticusFinch wrote:
Quote:
How about watching a TV show about medicine and suddenly asking, "How do I open my surgical office?" Yes if you think that sounds stupid, what do you think we professional magicians think of your attitude. "Gee I saw David Blaine so I'm going to work restaurants."


Still. You don't have to yell at them.


We're not yelling, we're telling them what they need to do. People don't even read the topics that are already on the first page.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:43 pm 
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jackpot6200 wrote:
wayno wrote:
The ends do not justify the means.


I see your point, but I still think in the end it was best that he took the gig. He may have had to learn the hard way, but he's had such a successful career at that particular restaurant so it's hard to say he shouldn't have done it. Just my opinion.


Sure. From a friend's perspective, of course he should have. It turned out great for him.

But as I mentioned, the ends do not justify the means. His footsteps/actions/decisions should be frowned upon, not something to follow.

I am glad everything worked out for him, for the restaurant (and hopefully he didn't undercut other area magicians to secure the gig, but being as young as he was, I can guarantee it), but as I said, that isn't something kids should be aiming for.

And I mention the undercut bit, because if someone doesn't have the exerience and knowledge, they're going to undercut the competition to the point where someone cannot make a living. That is fine for kids, when they do not have mortgages, and such, and are just interested in some spending money, but they can end up lowering the price expectations for the industry in the entire area. Everybody loses except the kid getting what he wants, and the client paying peanuts for a private entertainer.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:21 pm 
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what a good topic.
I think its all to often that young "magicians" who go to a local shop and buy an invisible deck try to book shows and do street magic videos two weeks later. It happens to so many young guys who find themselves upon the art. I can not blame them, magic is such an exclusive and brilliant art that any young teen will become entralled by it and get a bit over-ambitious right away. I remember starting to plan my own street magic special three weeks into buying my first tricked deck. I think this is a really great discussion that all yound aspiring magicians should read


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:26 pm 
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sorry i kinda brought up a dead topic


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