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 Post subject: Vague questions and the responses.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:30 am 
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(Rant Begin)

As i'm sitting here reading through some of the posts, its not hard to realize that a good majority of the people that post are in the age range of 12 to 18.

I just read a post asking "What is a good DVD for $25?" and all I could see from the responses was "This is so vague" "what kind of magic do you like?" the typical responses.

Ask yourself this; if someone is asking what to spend 25 dollars on, does it matter what kind of magic they like? Most people who post questions are so lost in magic that they have no clue where to start, they are seeking advice from people who have been through what they are going through.

(Rant End)

Now for my advice. Try explaining what you like and suggesting that in a post, rather then just shutting someone down. Keep in mind the age level in here is around that 12 - 18 range so try to remember people are just excited.

Thanks
Sypris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:53 am 
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To fully help someone, it would not be wise to suggest them material I would use, if they aren't a comic magician or a mentalist. Those are the two fields of magic I focus on the most, but many other magicians don't. I tell someone to get a video by Luke Jermay, and they don't do mentalism, it'd be a waste of money for them. Especially since they probably wouldn't be able to do the stuff anyway.

To actually help someone, we need to know a couple of basics:
1) Their skill level
2) What they already have
3) What type of magic they prefer
4) Their age
5) What they really want out of magic

If those five questions would be answered, then we could be much more helpful. And that's why we ask those questions. A question like, "I have $25, what is a good DVD" simply can't be answered helpfully. And it'd be irresponsible of us to try to suggest DVDs because it could be a waste of money for them, it could be something that they'd never use because it doesn't fit their style, and they simply may not like that type of magic.

So, suggesting what I like wouldn't help the majority of people here, unless they are trying to be me. And that's true with the majority of people here. I get what you're saying though. And it's a nice thing that you're trying to look out for people, because of their age. I just don't think what you have suggested is the best way to go about it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:05 pm 
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born to perform.

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Amen Brother!

I think the tone could be much more civil to people asking vague or beginner questions.

To you long-time citizens of this forum, keep in mind that forums are a form of modern communication. People, especially kids, are just going to blurt what they are thinking. That's never going to change. If you don't like the question, just don't answer. Let the people who enjoy answering and dialoging with newbies do the answering.

Personally, I don't mind answering newbie questions on forums (not speaking of magic forums specifically). I think of it as an on-going dialogue.

If someone comes into my office at work and asks me for directions to a training or conference room, I don't blurt out obcenities and tell them to check the FAQ or go search the company web site. I would sound like an arrogant jerk - which is how some people come off around here. Instead, I politely tell them where the room is at or even walk them to the room. Why should a forum experience be any different?

I do think that this is one of the more polite and helpful magic forums. If we can just be civil and helpful, we'll build a great community of long-term friends.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:10 pm 
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I think you are missunderstanding what I'm trying to get across. I find myself to be a hobbiest when it comes to Magic, I do perform but not on a regular basis and I collect a lot of magic material in all fields. I think most people would like to see what everyone else is buying for 25 dollars.

I'm not saying to post "You must buy this its only 19.99". What I wished people would do more is say in your case "Hey i'm a Comic magician and for 25 dollars I could get a couple squeekers or whatever, if you find yourself leaning towards comic magic this would be a good thing to research."

This allows the person asking the question to go through who responded and see what people are interested in, and from there he/she can do their research. This also allows the responder to get feedback from other people posting.

Example "Hey Fallingblood is into comic magic, and I see he's hit some of the main points, but i'll add my 2 cents to his ideas and maybe he and the person asking the qustion will find it valuable." This is more constructive then just posting "Vague?!? Need Info about you please now!".


Sypris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:13 pm 
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tbwendt wrote:

If someone comes into my office at work and asks me for directions to a training or conference room, I don't blurt out obcenities and tell them to check the FAQ or go search the company web site. I would sound like an arrogant jerk - which is how some people come off around here. Instead, I politely tell them where the room is at or even walk them to the room. Why should a forum experience be any different?




Oh man, spoken like a true professional right there. I take my hat off to a comment like that.

Sypris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:08 pm 
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That's true, but if there are 12 conference rooms, how do you know which one to send them too? Worse, what if they had to pay to get into those rooms and you sent them to the wrong one? The point is that "I have __. What should I get" isn't doing anyone any favors. I'm not recommending Revolutionary Card Technique or By Forces Unseen to a mentalist or even a beginner card guy. I'm not recommending Bobo's to David Roth. Without knowing something about the person asking, we can't ethically give recommendations. We all like different things. If I said "I have $40 and don't know what to spend it on" someone may recommend the Criss Angel Mindfreaks set and I'd have to mock them and scream myself into a corner trying to gouge out my eyes from seeing the horror of someone recommending something so far off course. Now, that situation would have been avoided if I had chimed in that I'm not an "edgy" and "cool" street magician.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:49 pm 
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Sypris wrote:
tbwendt wrote:

If someone comes into my office at work and asks me for directions to a training or conference room, I don't blurt out obcenities and tell them to check the FAQ or go search the company web site. I would sound like an arrogant jerk - which is how some people come off around here. Instead, I politely tell them where the room is at or even walk them to the room. Why should a forum experience be any different?




Oh man, spoken like a true professional right there. I take my hat off to a comment like that.

Sypris


Thats not near the same thing. Asking where a room is, is not the same as what to buy. So that example was, in my opinion, worthless.

an essay on this exact topic->
http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... p?t=136069

When some one asks what they should buy, because they have some cash. That is a very vague question in itself- because we dont know anything about them. All we can do is say what we would buy.
So maybe think harder next time before you "rant" about something.


Last edited by DavidTheCryptic on Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:07 pm 
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exodus wrote:
That's true, but if there are 12 conference rooms, how do you know which one to send them too?


Its not your job to know everything. You are only trying to help and sometimes just giving people a general direction was plenty of help. Its the same case with asking a vague question about what to spend 25 dollars on. You don't know what they like best, but you do know that they are in the 25 dollar range and that listing a few items for 25 dollars or less just might be all the help they really needed.

A lot of people around here like the trendy items, the new hip thing to get. Sometimes thats all they want to hear, "Hey whats new cool and costs less then 25 dollars?"

This debate can go in any direction you want it to. I just chose the way that makes sense to me. Not everyone is going to feel the same.

Sypris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:10 pm 
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I think this will end in tears.

Both of you have good points, but I guess I am leaning toward David here. If everybody here just asked you how to blow $40, then it would vary in responses, and get very annoying. You probably aren't here nearly as much as some of the other guys, and repeatedly answering the same question 5 times every night. I can see how it would start to get on your nerves...

To me it seems as though they are just to lazy to go research some effects out there. They just say "hey, I've got 40 bucks, how should I blow it?"

Now, somehow, I think that this is a waste of our time to answer them when they can't even bother to say who the heck they are, and what magic they are into. If they can't provide the basics, then why should we help them?

End of Rant (ha, ha, I laughed myself silly when I saw you post this)

Just my 2 cents (or more like 1.2 cents),

-Trix


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:27 pm 
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I have $20. Tell me what movie to go see!!!!!

ANYBODY???????

I'm leaving in 20 minutes to the theater!!!!! Can anyone help me?????

8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Wow X, thank you for taking 30 minutes of your day to help me. But I'm not into comedy movies.

Thanks Y, very informative. But I don't like animated movies.

Thanks Z, those 20 recommendations were great. But I don't like horror movies.

Thanks V, those 5 links to those reviews were great. But I didn't bother reading any of them. I'm not into dramas.

I'm really only interested in action movies. I wish I would have made that clear in my first post so EVERYONE DIDN'T WASTE THEIR GOD DAMNED TIME WITH ME AND MY DEMANDING NATURE!!!!!!

8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:34 pm 
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I think Wayno just summed it up.

If someone comes here and asks what they should buy, how can we really answer them? For all that we know, they could be a 9 year old boy, who hasn't done anything with magic yet. Telling them to pick up Generation Extreme would be a bad idea then. Because one, they probably don't have much money in the first place. Two, it's not a beginners DVD and it will only hinder their learning. And most likely, they will end up just giving up. On the other hand, we may suggest that they get Geek Magic. Now, that could be a dangerous source to recommend to a 9 year old, as they could seriously injure themselves. That is irresponsible.

I don't think people here have a problem answering others questions. However, the person posting has the responsibility of not being lazy, and actually posting their question in a way that actually deserves an actual answer. Also, it saves time, as we won't be told that they aren't interested in what we've suggested. And yes, that happens a lot, and it gets sickening, as everyone could have been saved a lot of time if they weren't lazy in the first place.

If I asked, "I have $25 and I want to buy a DVD or book." And that's all that I asked, I'd get a lot of answers that wouldn't help. And I would just have wasted all of those people's time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:58 pm 
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wayno wrote:
Wow X, thank you for taking 30 minutes of your day to help me. But I'm not into comedy movies.


I read that and started questioning what you were responding too. That post pretty much sums it up, though. You give me a price range and no other guidelines and I can go on for hours. You give me a price, genre, favorite performer, skill level, and a little other criteria and I can tell you exactly which products to look into. That's why I sell stuff in the local shop. I know enough about all the products, but without being able to talk to people, I'm just throwing things out. If I have the chance to talk to you and see what you're naturally drawn too, I can gauge you and see what you may be interested in. Unfortunately, online you really don't have that luxury. Think about it. I work in a shop, Jared's worked in shops, Wayno owns a shop, Dave has been doing this stuff for years and I sure isn't new to working inside a magic shop, and I could go on. A handful of us really do know what to recommend for people that are really interested in different genres. Without any guidelines, we could all go for hours. edited, Jared and I have.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:01 am 
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born to perform.

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I agree with Fallingblood and Wayno. The question can't be answered properly, so what's the point of answering.

How would you possibly know what they want to buy for $25. What if they hate card magic and I suggest BTP? What if they like to do strictly matchbook magic? What if they're not interested in magic whatsoever, and they thought they were posting in a Fans of Ping Pong forum?

I'm pretty sure it's not going to help them if I say if I had $25 I would probably buy an expanded shell(which is what I'm going to do on my next purchase). They probably wouldn't know what to do with an expanded shell or know what it is. Even if they did they might not even like coin magic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:47 am 
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I've been thinking about this throughout the day and I guess the way I feel is that, lack of information doesn't stop me from helping someone. I work at a retail store and when someone says "Whats a good game to buy?" The first thing that I say just like everyone else here is "Well what kind of games do you like" and to be honest most of the times people will say "Well... I dunno, I like all kinds of games" so from that point I just start naming off the newest games that I have played or new titles that were released and that I heard got good reviews. I took the situation into my own hands and acted from there, I wasn't going to give up on the customer and say "Well come back when you know what kind of games you like and then i'll be able to help you out." I feel that is what a lot of the responses to the underaged kids here is like.

I'm not going to respond anymore to this, for I feel it can go either way you want to look at it, and there is no point in debating over an issue that can't be won.

So I thank all for the fun.
Sypris


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