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 Post subject: The Age with magic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 82
Hello guys as you know if you read the forums that often young magicians are beat down because simply the "dont have experence". I hate to break it to you guys but everyone who says that is wrong..
Heres what i mean: Heres a 16 year old magician who's been intrested in magic for say 6 years (the first 2 years were the crappy little magic kit tricks, the next 2 years the kid learns actual gimmicks, and overall nice tricks, the next 2 years the kid learns more tricks and learns to to preform)..Someone like that 16 year old magaican imo is good in the feild in magic.
Now, take a 25 year old dood whose been doing magic for say 1 year(sure he buys gimmicks since he has to own credit card, and probabley has more tricks then the 16 year old kid)...
Line these two people up together...the 16 year old kid, and the 25 year old guy. Ask someone without even seeing what they know, what tricks they can do, their personality, or there experience. 99.9% of the time the person will say the 25 year old guy is better.

Its hard to face it, but kids are being sterotyped everyday. The point of this post is to stop people on the forums from saying "Oh you cant do magic your to young" or "please dont ruin our art since your young" or "you'll only expose our tricks and ruin magic"....ALL THESE THINGS SAID HAVE ONCE BEEN SAID TO ME.....people said this to me without even knowing me. Know I preform alot and get GREAT reactions, enough to make me want to work more, earn money, save some(car, college, ect), and the rest buy magic...i love how people look at you and give you a WHAT THE F!@$ reaction (btw im 15 years old).

When i go into magic shops or see how stage preformers preform..i often say WOW i know how he did that (without ever seeing the trick)..WHY you may ask??because i am confinident that i am better then half these fools.

Now i understand the older generations point of the argument, YES there are ALOT of young magicians who dig into their parents wallets, buy a GIMMICK, only to crappyly preform it, revealing and exposing the trick. That does annoying me, but im not going to sterotype people for it, thats just silly. There are alot of great young magicians, walk into a magic shop, i see 8 year old kids doing stuff i've never scean or can figure out...yet when someone who worked there shows me a trick im like "BAM I KNOW HOW YOU DO IT"... My point is yes, alot of young kids do stink at magic and ruin the art (im not denying that..LOOK ON YOUTUBE), but there is still a bunch of kids who do rock at the arts. After i show someone a great trick and get a good reaction sometimes ill take them to this forum and show them something i posted or someone else "young" posted only to get owned by saying "you such because your not experienced"...they usually laugh and say they dont know me..

FACE IT we were all NOOBS once...

And for the argument about STREET MAGICIANS and BUSKING...Yes i dont support 10-16 year old kids (including myself) to do that...because yes there are drunks (when i was preforming in a bar oncee)..and on the street someone could pull a gun or knife on you (espesically since i live the in NJ/NY area)...however, these kids do need experience and they have to start SOMETIME, so whenever you feel like you have a good act ready, and your parents okay it, hit the streets WITH EXTREME CAUTION...i suggest trying areas like movie theatres (i like this spot) and resturantes...

And remember the code of magic: keep practicing till you got it, dont preform anything you arent comfortable with.. i dont support the whole "practie till you make sure you DONT make a mistake"..the reason is YOUR BOUND to mess up one point at another...i suggest practicing until you know you got the sleights down, and can comfortabley preform the effect...

GL HF

oh and post back your comments...PLEASE NO STUPID SPAMMING, your only make a fool out of yourself.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:38 pm 
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Emperor Penguin

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
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There is a stereotype for a reason. It's because young magicians have made it. The majority of them are young and arrogant. They believe they know everything, and have huge egos. Now, I'm not saying all of them are that way, but the majority are. I know I was when I first started.

Now, with age come experience. That is a fact. I started magic when I was around 10. It's now been nearly a decade, and I have much more experience. I have much more life experience, and much more experience with magic. 5 years ago though, even with about 5 years of experience, I know I would have been no where near ready to start busking. The truth is that I didn't have the life experience. I didn't have the performing experience. I didn't have the business experience.

Just because someone is young, we don't state they will ruin magic, or that they shouldn't perform. But when they come on here with a huge ego, and show that they don't know what they are talking about, then we do state that.

Now, from just looking at your post, I would say that you fit into that stereotype. You may be a good performer, but you have a large ego, which will only hurt you in the end. The reason it's obvious that you have a large ego is because you state over and over again about how you can figure out all of this magic, as well as you present yourself. I really advise that you loose the ego. It will allow you to learn a lot more.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Joined: 22 Mar 2004
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Maybe you should go back and read the majority of the comments on here towards the younger crowd. Your miss reading, mis-quoting, and just putting words into our mouths.

We give real reasons, real advice, and real examples.

Your picking out what has happened to you for the most part.

Most people on here really dont have that much experience and most arent very mature.

Some of us actually do know what we are talking about.

99.9% of the time the person will say the 25 year old guy is better And you know this for sure. You have taken polls and you have support for this percentage?

your only make a fool out of yourself :roll:

IF you want to be taken serious, clean up this "essay" of yours.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:42 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 2576
Location: Ituna, Saskatchewan, Canada
nickyd8...

Although it seems that you mean well, your post is wrong on a number of levels, not the least of which being that you are building your argument on a hypothetical comparison between two fictitious magicians which you have created for the singular purpose of proving your point.

Unfortunately, you ignore the reality demonstrated here on the Penguin forums every day, which is that that most "young magicians" who come here and demand advice and support because they believe that they are ready to work in restaurants or perform at children's parties or at *shudder* corporate events are, in reality, nowhere near ready to be performing magic in public for money... perhaps not even for free.

I don't discourage or attack "young magicians" because they lack "experience." I try to restrain them from humiliating themselves and damaging the public perception of the art of magic not because they are inexperienced but because they lack maturity, patience, talent, and a willingness to entertain people with magic for reasons that extend beyond the placating of their own egos.

Yes, there are sixteen-year-old magicians out there who have seriously dedicated themselves to the art of magic, practiced diligently, developed acts (not lists of random tricks), rehearsed them to perfection (or, at least, as close to it as they can get), approached the job of marketing themselves with an understanding of what it takes to run a business (or gotten help from parents or other adults who have), treat all their clients -- children as well as adults -- with respect, and treat other magicians and the art of magic as a whole with respect. Yes, there are probably some kids like that out there... kids who will perhaps grow up into the next Lance Burton.

But the truth of the matter is that, in the Penguin forums, there are maybe three kids who meet those criteria, at least in my experience (which is about four years on this forum). Most of the kids here don't give a crap about the art or history of magic... they think it is their right to snag free magic off the 'Net because it is there and that all the working pros out there should be falling over themselves to bestow free advice upon them... they think that learning magic from YouTube exposure videos and perhaps even making a few themselves is the future of magic... they think that because they can buy magic that is or has been performed by professional magicians (usually on TV), they should... and, worse yet, that they can perform it to the same level of quality as those professional magicians in a few hours... they think that they can enter the professional markletplace and get "experience" by undercutting the working pros in their area... and they think they can do children's shows because kids are generally stupid and easy to entertain.

Yes, that is a big ball of stereotype... but there is a heck of a lot of truth behind it, and I see that truth here in post after post, day after day. Not every "young magician" on these forums exhibits all of those characteristics, but I'd argue that most do exhibit two or more. That's all it takes, really. Yes, there are also "young magicians" here who are very close to leaving some or all of the characteristics of that stereotype behind. I've seen a few come very close, but get sucked right back largely because it is easy to hold on to incorrect perspectives on magic when you are surrounded and supported by a bunch of kids who wrongly believe the same things.

I wholeheartedly support the young magicians who exhibit the dedication and committment to magic and entertainment that are necessary to becoming a magician, rather than remaining a kid who does tricks. When I encounter someone like that, I do what I can to help them out. When I was a "young magician" -- and yes, I was there once -- I didn't have as much support. However, when I was at the same age as many of the kids here, I would never have had the arrogance to think that I was ready to "go pro" and start hitting up restaurants or that I somehow had more knowledge and credibility than people who had been doing magic for two or three times as long as I'd been alive simply because I'd watched a few DVDs.

But that's not the worst part of it, at least in my opinion. The worst part is seeing someone ask a question and then being repeatedly given good, solid, real-world advice and support... and then dismissing it because it conflicts with their preconception of the way things should be. In a nutshell, I'm saying that the worst of it is that so many of the kids here are simply unwilling to learn.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 82
fallingblood wrote:
There is a stereotype for a reason. It's because young magicians have made it. The majority of them are young and arrogant. They believe they know everything, and have huge egos. Now, I'm not saying all of them are that way, but the majority are. I know I was when I first started.

Now, with age come experience. That is a fact. I started magic when I was around 10. It's now been nearly a decade, and I have much more experience. I have much more life experience, and much more experience with magic. 5 years ago though, even with about 5 years of experience, I know I would have been no where near ready to start busking. The truth is that I didn't have the life experience. I didn't have the performing experience. I didn't have the business experience.

Just because someone is young, we don't state they will ruin magic, or that they shouldn't perform. But when they come on here with a huge ego, and show that they don't know what they are talking about, then we do state that.

Now, from just looking at your post, I would say that you fit into that stereotype. You may be a good performer, but you have a large ego, which will only hurt you in the end. The reason it's obvious that you have a large ego is because you state over and over again about how you can figure out all of this magic, as well as you present yourself. I really advise that you loose the ego. It will allow you to learn a lot more.


okay, one i dont have a "large ego of what your saying"..when your trying to prove a point you tend to "drill to kill" to get your point across, which was simply what i was doing...so dont take that the wrong way..

Davidthecryptic i actually read the comments, and i must say i beleive for the most part i am correct, now i wont go back and find you proof or anything, because to be honest i dont care enough to do that (my purpose was to smartly evaluate people rather than sterotype people)

Btw do you know the age of an adult.???????

-And clean up this "essay" of mine..its not a essay number 1, number two after reding these posts and seeing how majority of these kids are wrecked when posting i posted this to stop that...So when people tell us to grow up i tend to throw it back to the person saying that (please thats immature...and btw that wasnt directed towards you david, i am aware you never said that).

THEcaffentinater-i understand what you mean the most, but you got to understand (at least for me) i dont make money off this stuff, i do it so people can laugh and have fun ( i beleive that it the true art of magic) i honestly think taking this art and making into a money and a type of lifestyle may be a shelfish lifestyle (unless you are tipped)....

Anyways i read many books, such as 13 steps, which gave me ideas on tricks, i have invented my own mentalism tricks, gimmicks, ect. My ego aint big. I just hate how when i post my age people tend to give me watered down "oh your a kid" answer, thats what im trying to stop. I know what its like to run a business (oh trust me i know, espeically since it didnt go to well at times, i know the struggles, ect.) I know what its like to pay my way through (i buy everything i own generally because number 1 i dont want my parents spending their money on me when i know they need it and number 2 i do have a somewhat of an icome from working).

so now as you know a little background about me i hope you guys know where im coming from, how fustraiting it is to get treated differently..

Im very thankful for the help recieved on this forum, for example DaveV helped me alot on question with m5 and how to preform/make it, ect.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:43 pm 
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First, you don't know what it's like to pay your way through. Your parents are supporting you. You don't have to pay bills, you don't have to worry about things like that.

Again, you're showing your ego. Instead of taking what other people said, you are arguing point that you can't win. Simply because it's a wrong point. Also, stereotyping isn't a bad thing to do. It is a natural instinct that protects us.

There are some very well informed young magicians on this site. They have gained a lot of respect, because they act mature. However, for the most part, the younger magicians do not act mature, and fit into the stereotype that you were talking about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Young people are not stereotyped at all. Only the ones with you with horrible grammar. Just because because you can figure out effects, does not mean you're a good magician, or better than anyone else. There are laymen that can figure out effects just from watching them, and according to your standards, they're better magicians than you... and they're not even magicians! Scary thought, isn't it?

I myself am 15, and I have NEVER been treated worse than anyone else because of my age. I know I'm fairly good compared to other kids my age, but I would be eaten alive by pro magicians. It's a fact of life. With age comes maturity, wise-ness (lol), etc. They just know more than us, and to be quite honest, a lot of the older guys, no matter their experience in magic, are going to be more entertaining than us.

And this may have already been said, I haven't read the responses yet, but magic isn't all technical skill. It's a lot about being entertaining, too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:34 pm 
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Penguin

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Posts: 82
fallingblood wrote:
First, you don't know what it's like to pay your way through. Your parents are supporting you. You don't have to pay bills, you don't have to worry about things like that.

Again, you're showing your ego. Instead of taking what other people said, you are arguing point that you can't win. Simply because it's a wrong point. Also, stereotyping isn't a bad thing to do. It is a natural instinct that protects us.

There are some very well informed young magicians on this site. They have gained a lot of respect, because they act mature. However, for the most part, the younger magicians do not act mature, and fit into the stereotype that you were talking about.


i dont have to pay bills...okay TRUE, i get that...
showing ego by not agreeing...i actually did agree with some people comments (read last comment)..

adjones, i never ask to someone to reveal a effect to me...the owner of the trick deserves their money for it, they took the time to teach it and make it...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:04 pm 
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What did that have to do with anything I said? I just said that simply because you can figure out some effects at the local magic shop does not mean that you are a good magician. It takes a lot more than technical skill and know-how to become successful at this art... even I know that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:03 am 
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nickyd8 wrote:
i dont have to pay bills...okay TRUE, i get that...
showing ego by not agreeing...i actually did agree with some people comments (read last comment)..
I did read your last comment. I didn't say you have a large ego because you won't agree. I said you had a large ego because you believe you're correct, even though the vast majority of the information says you are incorrect. Instead of listening to logic, your ego takes over and you believe you're correct no matter what.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:15 am 
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You're right about stereotyping. You're also right that SOME kids are good magi. I an in a ring with, and know him very well, Dakota Rose. He has a monthly column in The Linking Ring featuring young magicians. He is only 16, but is VERY good and has appeared at The Magic Castle.

However, he is THE EXCEPTION. I will guarantee you that 90% of the kids on this forum match our stereotype. If I am wrong I'll kiss you in front of the Washington Monument and give you an hour to draw a crowd. In fact I am being very generous when I say that 90% are gimmick players, it probably closer to 99%.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Penguin

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fallingblood i never said LOOK IM CORRECT, i said something more around the lines of look this is whats going on, and im sick of it.. I cant have a opinion that disagrees with your??:?...The most respectable post here i beleive is paddys, hes not coming off what i said the wrong way..he simplys generiously said how he disagrees with me however he said i could be right (notice he didnt flat out tell me im wrong)....and btw i dont want a kiss in front of washington monument....i dont want anything..MAybe i didnt make it clear in the post because it was late and i was groggy(fault on my part)...im just sick of locked threads of kids saying im 15 should i hit the streets and people hamming him down..Insted we (as a community) should say something like "Look (name), you seem a bit young to be preforming all by yourself on the streets all by yourself. I suggest having a accompanied guarden or parent with you to ensure your saftey. Many crazy things occur on the streets such as, fights, stabbing, ect. Many magicians actually got harmed preforming on the streets. We just want to make sure you dont get harmed preforming a art you love" ...see that was saying no, but being nice AND constructive.
Im coming off this post in a new way, if you'd like me to clarify certain aspects of my argument i would be gladley to do so...SORRY if i came off the wrong way. But to be honest, i really dont have a large ego, i dont always think im right (i think me being fustraited is a better selection of words)...This post is not to flame anyone, its rather to help... :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:55 am 
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Nicky, read all of my reply. In the second paragraph I do state that 99% of the kids that come on here and say "I'm 15 and want to work the streets" are not good magicians. Yes we do tear into them because every one of them comes out and says "You're wrong, I'm going to do it anyway."

Street magic is NOT what those fakes Blaine and Angel do. It is not using gimmicks like the bite out coin in front of a group of actors pretending that they are amazed. It is drawing a tip, building an edge, using hat lines, passing the hat and doing it again, over and over. It is having a great 10s to 15 minute sidewalk show, plus having a great 30 to 45 minute circle show, and keeping the audience thru the show and entertained enough to drop money in the hat at the end.

Yes, when some kid who bought a stripper deck, a scotch and soda and a DVD on sponge balls thinks he is the next Copperfield, then we get a little (no make that a lot) blunt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:32 am 
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nickyd8: Surely you'd agree that you shouldn't work a job unless you are ready for it.

You stated you don't make money with magic, if you were trying to get into working pro, you'd surely want us to be honest with you. I worked when I was 15, quite extensively, and to tell you the truth it was difficult! The audience had nothing against me, except it's sometimes difficult to take young people seriously. It's a fact of life. I'm 22 years old now, and the problem isn't such a problem for me anymore, but we all go through it.

No great injustice is being done to young magicians, as Paddy said, some are decent, but respect is earned. It's great to ask for advice and have questions, but generally speaking; if you have to ask advice on how to work as a magician you are not ready. That's not to say we all don't learn as we go.

I'd encourage you to look at the other side of things, look how many young people that are being helped here! Guys like DaveV, Paddy, etc are REAL workers! It took them several years to get where they are at now, and the fact they are willing to give advice and share their experience is quite a learning tool for young and old people alike!

Part of growing up is learning what questions to ask, like in school, as you advance to higher education you learn that asking questions is important, and asking the RIGHT questions is even more important!

When young people come on here and ask us which is better the invisible deck or sponge balls - it's a little presumptuous but it's safe to assume they aren't ready to work professionally. The real world out there is rather vicious, some lay audience will eat you alive if you aren't polished and don't know your stuff. The big difference between those who are helped, and those who are criticized is attitude.

Older more seasoned magicians care about the art, and care about the future of the art. You can either benefit from other's experience or get criticized for not listening. It's not that we don't want young people to succeed, quite the contrary! We just want to put them on the right path.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:37 am 
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Nick, you are correct. You can have your own opinion. However, just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean that it should be considered all of the time. In this case, your opinion is wrong. If you looked at the facts, you would see this.

Stereotyping is a natural thing that people have to do. It's a natural instinct. Now, sometimes stereotypes are incorrect. However, in this case, it's not. Younger magicians simply are not mature enough to go out and work. There are exceptions. But the majority of them don't have the knowledge, maturity, or experience to make it as a professional magician; at this current time. In the future; sure, they may be able to make it. But at the current time, the majority of them can't.

We don't tear into every new magician. The ones we do tear into are the ones who have over inflated egos and waste our time by asking a question, and then ignoring our advice and insult us instead. The ones who actually take the advice, and act as if they have a true interest in magic, we help as much as we can.


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