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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:01 pm 
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Or, " I haven't so don't ruin it for me!!"


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 Post subject: Re: "Seen it before"
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:59 pm 
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clarissa35f wrote:

" ... You find my card." lol

I love to do card magic, I avoid Pick a card tricks to the best extent I can, unless they have strong endings like Eddie Fechter's "That's it." or "Triumph". Otherwise i go with 4 ace tricks, or packet tricks.


"Wrong. Actually, your card gets lost in the deck for all eternity wandering th void with but a single glowing ember to light it's path. . . I'm sorry, what where we talking about?"

You avoid tricks that involve picking a card? Like ACR's, the biddle trick, and nearly every other card effect on earth?


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 Post subject: Re: "Seen it before"
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:58 pm 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
clarissa35f wrote:

" ... You find my card." lol

I love to do card magic, I avoid Pick a card tricks to the best extent I can, unless they have strong endings like Eddie Fechter's "That's it." or "Triumph". Otherwise i go with 4 ace tricks, or packet tricks.


"Wrong. Actually, your card gets lost in the deck for all eternity wandering th void with but a single glowing ember to light it's path. . . I'm sorry, what where we talking about?"

You avoid tricks that involve picking a card? Like ACR's, the biddle trick, and nearly every other card effect on earth?


I avoid the * Fan out pack with cards face down..* Pick a Card...any card..." effects. Unless They have strong endings like " Triumph " or " That's it."

From your listing it seems you have BTPCM, I may be wrong. The reason I infer that is because you mention " The Biddle trick" BTPCM may give the impression that almost every card effect out there is ' Pick a card."

I can do 20 to 30 minutes of routine with cards without doing any " Pick a card " effects. I assure you that there are a LOT of plots out there, besides the " pick a card " plot.

You can do 30 minutes easy with just " 4 ace production" effects "4 ace assemblies." then add transposition tricks... Add to that solid through solid card effects. "Gemini Twins" is not pick a card. " Jumping Gemini" is not pick a card. "Card Warp" is not pick a card. "MacDonald's Aces"...etc.. I can go on and on. See the thing is...even if 80 % of card effects are " pick a card" if there are 1000 different card effects out there, that means you have 200 that are NOT " pick a card". See? it's just a matter of looking.

I do not consider "ACR" or " Your Signed card" ( another excellent non " pick a card" effect.) to be " pick a card " effects because it is not based on losing then locating an unknown selected card. You freely turn the deck face up... you ask them to sign it openly. You are working with a Unique card.

As I said, I avoid "pick a card" effects. To the spectator they all look the same. They do not care which way you shuffled the deck, which way you cut the deck, or which way you finally produce the selected card. To a spec they all look the same.

I realize now why we are having trouble understanding each other. Sorry had a blond moment. What I think of as a "pick a card" trick is not one where the spectator selects a card. I say "Pick a card" specifically for the cliched " * fan cards upside down.." Picka card any card.." lose card in deck...shuffle ,...cut... then find card in some way." thing.

I will do "card to pocket, purse, shoe...bra... stocking" when my palming gets better. But It's not just picking a card that is what i refer to as " pick a card."


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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:09 pm 
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Any magician has a duty to thier audience to try and show them something new, something surprising. Do everything you can to this end. Original patter, unique handling and exotic effects. Things like the ambitious card are done by every magician going, but no two people perform it quite the same way. Take that approach to all your tricks and the situation couldn't possibly occur. As others have said, Make the trick your own.


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 Post subject: Re: "Seen it before"
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:46 pm 
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Clarissa35F wrote:

I avoid the * Fan out pack with cards face down..* Pick a Card...any card..." effects. Unless They have strong endings like " Triumph " or " That's it."

From your listing it seems you have BTPCM, I may be wrong. The reason I infer that is because you mention " The Biddle trick" BTPCM may give the impression that almost every card effect out there is ' Pick a card."

Yes I do own a copy of BTP Card Magic, though it is but one of over 20 DVDs I've purchased exclusively for the study of card magic - then of course there's the books, but let's not get into that. I named those two effects, because there are countless variations on either of them and they are both well known.

By the way, I’m not under the impression that almost all card tricks are “pick a card”s, but my experience has shown that most of the strong ones are.


I can do 20 to 30 minutes of routine with cards without doing any " Pick a card " effects. I assure you that there are a LOT of plots out there, besides the " pick a card " plot.

I can do over 2 hours of professional level card magic without repeating an effect. You seem to think you’re the more experienced between the two of us Clarissa – you are also sorely mistaken.

You can do 30 minutes easy with just " 4 ace production" effects "4 ace assemblies." then add transposition tricks... Add to that solid through solid card effects. "Gemini Twins" is not pick a card. " Jumping Gemini" is not pick a card. "Card Warp" is not pick a card. "MacDonald's Aces"...etc.. I can go on and on. See the thing is...even if 80 % of card effects are " pick a card" if there are 1000 different card effects out there, that means you have 200 that are NOT " pick a card". See? it's just a matter of looking.

1000? There are probably 1000 packet tricks out there; there are tens of thousands of card effects using only a regular deck. Different handlings, presentations, minor tweaks to a routine can make it seem completely different.

By the way, tossing out a percentage based on nothing, then applying it to another number based on nothing, proves exactly nothing. Please avoid doing that in the future.

As far as Ace productions, if you're guessing 30minutes - you havn't even scratched the surface. There are countless variations on the 4 Ace plot; however, ask any professional close-up magician how many 4 Ace effects he does per group, show, or table. . . the answer is 1 if he does any at all. As good as ace productions are, they usually aren’t commercial, practical, or really all that fun for the audience (there are a few exceptions of course). The key to any good close-up routine is getting in touch with the audience and getting them involved. If you search the deck, take out the aces, put them back in the deck, and find them again – how involved was your audience?



I do not consider "ACR" or " Your Signed card" ( another excellent non " pick a card" effect.) to be " pick a card " effects because it is not based on losing then locating an unknown selected card. You freely turn the deck face up... you ask them to sign it openly. You are working with a Unique card.

Whether or not you consider it one makes very little difference to me, but okay. We'll also forget the psychological element of allowing the person to choose any card before they sign to cement in the fact that it REALLY is unique and wasn't preselected in any way – fine, let’s say that it’s not a “pick a card”.
That’s fine. I’ll put Chicago Opener above MacDonald’s Aces any day. There is an inherent magical property to allowing the card to be chosen by the spectator rather than just manipulating cards you’ve pre-selected. This aspect should be obvious, if it’s not – look harder.

Mind you, I don't mean to knock MacDonald's Aces - it's a great trick; but it takes too long, doesn't let the audience get involved, and doesn't end clean. As you perform more often, you'll see how important these aspects are.



As I said, I avoid "pick a card" effects. To the spectator they all look the same. They do not care which way you shuffled the deck, which way you cut the deck, or which way you finally produce the selected card. To a spec they all look the same.

Wow. . . you need to get more experience in card magic, because this betrays a massive level of ignorance. It is simply and utterly false, I don’t know what else to tell you on that point.


I realize now why we are having trouble understanding each other. Sorry had a blond moment. What I think of as a "pick a card" trick is not one where the spectator selects a card. I say "Pick a card" specifically for the cliched " * fan cards upside down.." Pick a card any card.." lose card in deck...shuffle ,...cut... then find card in some way." thing.


I don’t understand what you mean here. You don’t like the literally spoken phrase “Pick a card” because it’s cliché? If that’s the case, then by all means say something else; but thus far, you’ve made a lot of statements that just don't live up to that.

I’ll let you in on a secret: do you know what happens if you don’t tell the spectator to pick a card? They stare at the deck waiting to be told what to do.

I typically say things like “Pull one out.” if that makes you feel any better. In the instance referred to I was using the comedic angle of telling the audience that it’s a tired old cliché right before I do it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:26 am 
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in your endeavour to sound so good and win the argument you totally missed the entire point of my post. I deliberately gave low numbers so that no one can say.." you are exaggerating."

I never said or implied that I knew more material than you. ALL I said was there was tons of material out there.

The reason it seemed that I knew more was your statement " Every other card effect out there is a pick a card trick." it's hard to say that then come back, and claim all this other card magic knowledge.

That you can do 2 hours of card effects with just 4 ace tricks says that " every other card trick is a pick a card trick" is a falsehood. So I do not understand you.

As I said at the end, I saw where we misunderstood one another. What I call " Pick a card" trick is not a card trick that uses the ciche'd line " Pick a card"

It is any trick where a card is offered for selection where the performer does not see the card ...where the card is returned...where it is shuffled and cut... and then..wow found. I also said except where they have a strong finish Like " Triumph" or "That's it." I guess I should have added "Red Hot Mama" but since you have seen my posts in the past I assumed you knew I love performing that as well.

And yet my strongest reactions are from "Jazz Aces" where the audience should be bored to tears because they do not get to interact. While audience participation is good. and to be encouraged it is not the be all and end all of magic. How often do audience members interact in a Siegfried and Roy magic routine? Would you say they were non-commercial?

When I said " to spectators all these pick a card tricks look the same" you say i am massively ignorant. On the other hand you started one of these... and the spec says " I saw this before." You are not listening to what your spectator is telling you. By the way Darwin Ortiz says you should listen to what your spectators tell you because they are telling you how you are coming across... that's not me with my massive ignorance...that's Darwin Ortiz. I guess he's massively ignorant as well.

What your spectator told you is exactly what I just told you... to the spec they care little about all the different kinds of shuffles or cuts in a " pick a card trick" To HIM it looked exactly the same as every other pick a card trick. In other words when you started it, and he said.." I already saw this one... " it's because he has. When you asked How did he think it was gonna end? he knew exactly how it would end... You found his card.... Big whooop... doesn't sound very strong to me.

THOSE tricks I avoid. For the reasons I expressed. If you enjoy them great, no one is saying that you cannot do them...the same way that no one is saying that you have to... which choices a magician makes about which effects they perform is as personal as what instrument a musician chooses to play,

I do not understand why you feel that i have to agree that " pick a card " tricks are among the strongest effects in magic? for who? Maybe for you, they leave me cold. Am I saying they are the worst? No... I am saying that for me...i avoid them for the same reason i avoid zuchini.

I do not happen to personally like them.

I find it strange that you are trying to convince me I should like or perform something i do not like. If you like them wonderful.

The idea that because I do not happen to agree with you...means I have a total ignorance about magic? Arrogance much? Your experience with that spectator, which should educate you, you toss off as a " silly spectator." story... is telling you something... to him...all "pick a card tricks" are exactly the same. And yet you claim that spectators care about all the little differences. It is hard to say I agree with you, when the very story you tell proves you wrong.. You tried to do a trick, he says he saw it already... you say all you said was Pick a card... you ask how was it gonna end? Simply...you find his card. All the acrobatics in the middle only matter to other magicians... not spectators. Darwin Ortiz says that an effect that may flabbergast another magician may leave spectators cold. Because it takes different things to impress magicians than to impress spectators. But then again what does he know right? He's also massively ignorant.

As for the 80 % Card Magic is a Pick a card trick.. to be honest I have no clue then again as I said you missed entirely the point of my post... see try and follow... even if Pick a card tricks comprise only 1 % of card magic... and there are by your admission over 10,000 different card effects out there.... then it stands to reason there are AT LEAST 9,900 Non Pick a card tricks out there.... or if you do the math the other way and say " every other effect is.." then that is 50 %... ok... so 5000 effects are not picka card tricks...

Are you following me now? There are TONS of " non pick a card trick" effects out there... " every other card effect" is NOT a Pick a card trick... regardless...I do not like them, that is why i do not perform them....they are cliche... most spec's run away when they see the upside down fan spread and the magician saying.." Pick a card...PLEASE!!!!!!!" ( ok exaggerating.)

I really do not know what I may have said to get all this from you.. Just because I do not happen to find a particular aspect of card magic appealing? Or does winning internet arguments really matter that much to you? I gathered this from other posts I have seen from you. If so you win. I'll make sure to avoid your ego in the future.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:31 pm 
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clarissa35f wrote:
The reason it seemed that I knew more was your statement " Every other card effect out there is a pick a card trick." it's hard to say that then come back, and claim all this other card magic knowledge.


I'm sorry. As I said in the previous post, not every card effect involves the spectator picking a card - just most of the good ones.


That you can do 2 hours of card effects with just 4 ace tricks says that " every other card trick is a pick a card trick" is a falsehood. So I do not understand you.

Interesting, I never said nor-implied anything to that effect. If you're going to insert quotation marks, you should probably use an actual quote.

"I can do over 2 hours of professional level card magic without repeating an effect."
I said absolutely nothing about 4 ace effects in that statement.


As I said at the end, I saw where we misunderstood one another. What I call " Pick a card" trick is not a card trick that uses the ciche'd line " Pick a card"

No trick needs to use any certain patter. I have no idea how you could define an effect by a 3 word phrase that's used in it's performance - that simply defies logic.

I find it very interesting that you simply didn't post,
"I'm sorry we've had a miscommunication. What I meant was, I don't like to use the cliche phrase "Pick a card".
That would have saved us both alot of time. I would submit that you where more interested in arguing than in clearing up the confusion.



It is any trick where a card is offered for selection where the performer does not see the card ...where the card is returned...where it is shuffled and cut... and then..wow found. I also said except where they have a strong finish Like " Triumph" or "That's it." I guess I should have added "Red Hot Mama" but since you have seen my posts in the past I assumed you knew I love performing that as well.

Uh huh? So every card revelation is bad excluding Triumph, That's It, and Red Hot Mama? Interesting, wait until all the professional magicians out there hear about this!

By the way, the plot you're referring to is typically called "A Card Revelation". There are thousands of effects that fit into this category, ACR's being one of them.


And yet my strongest reactions are from "Jazz Aces" where the audience should be bored to tears because they do not get to interact. While audience participation is good. and to be encouraged it is not the be all and end all of magic. How often do audience members interact in a Siegfried and Roy magic routine? Would you say they were non-commercial?


Sigfried and Roy are stage magicians Clarissa. I believe I specifically stated that the need for audience participation applies to close-up magic (which just happens to be the topic we're discussing). Again, attempting to use stage magic as evidence to support a claim about close-up magic betrays massive ignorance of the subject.

As for Jazz Aces, wait till you learn a faster Ace assembly, or a more visual one for that matter. You'll be shocked by how much better the reactions are, even more so than the best ones your getting now.

Secondly, since you sortof brought it up, Jazz Aces isn't a very commercial effect. It's too long, requires a table, blah blah blah.



When I said " to spectators all these pick a card tricks look the same" you say i am massively ignorant. On the other hand you started one of these... and the spec says " I saw this before." You are not listening to what your spectator is telling you. By the way Darwin Ortiz says you should listen to what your spectators tell you because they are telling you how you are coming across... that's not me with my massive ignorance...that's Darwin Ortiz. I guess he's massively ignorant as well.



That's called "a heckler" Clarissa. The gentleman was slightly drunk and the other specs had no problem with the effect.
My spectators where telling me, "He's drunk, feel free to ignore him."
Mr. Ortiz's advice doesn't apply here.
Again, something you'll learn with more experience.



I do not understand why you feel that i have to agree that " pick a card " tricks are among the strongest effects in magic? for who? Maybe for you, they leave me cold. Am I saying they are the worst? No... I am saying that for me...i avoid them for the same reason i avoid zuchini.


That's all well and good. I don't think you do need to agree - but I think you will when you get more exposure to advanced card magic.

I'd like you to realize, if you told any serious card magican, "I don't like pick a card effects." he would also assume that you don't know what you're talking about either.

In different statements you've defined "Pick a card" effects as:
Effects where the words "Pick a card" are said.
Effects where a card is chosen, lost in the pack, and revealed.

Using the former, okay - change the patter.
Using the latter, you're closing yourself off to some of the strongest effects in card magic - likely without even being aware of it.



The idea that because I do not happen to agree with you...means I have a total ignorance about magic? Arrogance much? Your experience with that spectator, which should educate you, you toss off as a " silly spectator." story... is telling you something... to him...all "pick a card tricks" are exactly the same. And yet you claim that spectators care about all the little differences. It is hard to say I agree with you, when the very story you tell proves you wrong.. You tried to do a trick, he says he saw it already... you say all you said was Pick a card... you ask how was it gonna end? Simply...you find his card. All the acrobatics in the middle only matter to other magicians... not spectators. Darwin Ortiz says that an effect that may flabbergast another magician may leave spectators cold. Because it takes different things to impress magicians than to impress spectators. But then again what does he know right? He's also massively ignorant.


Alot of people din't agree with me on alot of things Clarissa, that's not why I said you where ignorant. Very obviously, I said you where ignorant because you claimed that Quote: "all "pick a card"effects look the same." That statement is proof in and of itself that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Look at Chicago Opener, Red Hot Mama, and Card to Pocket - do they look similar? Nope. But by your definition, they are all "pick a card effects".

This is also why I don't care for people making up personal definitions.




As for the 80 % Card Magic is a Pick a card trick.. to be honest I have no clue then again as I said you missed entirely the point of my post... see try and follow...

And apparently you missed the point of my responce. You pulled a number out of the air, pulled a percentage out of the air, and claimed that they had relevance. My point was - don't do that, it makes you look stupid.

There's an old joke,
Did you know 80% of statistics quoted are lies?
No, I would think it would be higher.
Okay. Let's make it 85% then.



I really do not know what I may have said to get all this from you.. Just because I do not happen to find a particular aspect of card magic appealing? Or does winning internet arguments really matter that much to you? I gathered this from other posts I have seen from you. If so you win. I'll make sure to avoid your ego in the future.

You're "getting this" because you made a brash generalization about a subject that you are obviously not very familiar with. You also opened with a snide comment directed at me.

As far as the ego thing goes, one could say the same looking at your posts sweetheart. "Those who live in glass houses" and all that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm 
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You win :-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:43 pm 
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I honsestly don't care whether "I win" or not Clarissa, I just want you to realize what a mistake it is to close yourself off to great material just because you don't like a particular patter line.

As you once said, "Internet arguments are like the special olympics. No matter who wins, you're both still ________".


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:45 pm 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
I honsestly don't care whether "I win" or not Clarissa, I just want you to realize what a mistake it is to close yourself off to great material just because you don't like a particular patter line.

As you once said, "Internet arguments are like the special olympics. No matter who wins, you're both still ________".


and you won :-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:50 pm 
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clarissa35f wrote:
dbaker_creator wrote:
I honsestly don't care whether "I win" or not Clarissa, I just want you to realize what a mistake it is to close yourself off to great material just because you don't like a particular patter line.

As you once said, "Internet arguments are like the special olympics. No matter who wins, you're both still ________".


and you won :-)


I'll refer you again to the quote ^




So does that make me "high functioning" or something?


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:58 pm 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
clarissa35f wrote:
dbaker_creator wrote:
I honsestly don't care whether "I win" or not Clarissa, I just want you to realize what a mistake it is to close yourself off to great material just because you don't like a particular patter line.

As you once said, "Internet arguments are like the special olympics. No matter who wins, you're both still ________".


and you won :-)


I'll refer you again to the quote ^




So does that make me "high functioning" or something?


I have already said all I will ever say on this issue. my answers are there to be read if you are interested. Since you feel compelled to either point out my " total ignorance" or my " stupidity." I don't feel this conversation is at all productive. Maybe you enjoy the give and take of debating. Maybe you prefer to exercise those argumentative muscles on the internet. I don't know. But I will say this. Internet arguments are like the special olympics, as you said. As I have said in the past.

I was not arguing with you by the way. You made a statement. I made a comment. you then questioned why I said what i said. I gave my opinion. then you tore into my responce and basically said only a total ignoramus would believe as I did, after misconstruing most of what I said.

You deliberately misinterpreted what I explained even though i took pains to explain on more than one occasion. Over and Over again the same explanation that you kept misunderstanding because you could then milk further argument from it.

I do not know whether or not you are higher functioning or not. I do know that you have been the only one having an " internet argument" all I was doing was clarifying what I had said in the past.....

So you are the only one having an internet argument that you won. if you do not understand what that means then whether you are higher functioning or not is in question.

You won. And with this, since I have explained what i meant another time, and I have come to realize you either cannot or will not understand common simple english...I bid you adieu good sir :-)

You won. Now you can do your victory dance.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 am 
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My last post was a joke in an attempt to lighten the mood Clarissa.

As for your posts not being argumentative - give me a break.
You've established a pattern of encouraging and participating in arguments, finding yourself outclassed in the discussion, then claiming that you where never arguing at all - just clarifying. It's typical of internet arguments.
This clarifies why you don't like the magiccafe. Here only one person called you on it, there everyone would call you on it. The folks at the cafe force you to act like an adult, which apparently doesn't sit well with you.

Was I arguing, sure. The differences are, 1)I don't mind admitting that I was arguing andb 2)my arguments could only benefit YOU. As stated several times, my entire point was that you're sutting out a huge amount of great material over 3 words of patter and your ignorance of the vast reach of the "Card Revelation" plot.

Could I have expressed the same point simply by saying, "Keep an open mind."? Sure; but like me you have both a strong personality and a stubbron streak - such a simple answer would have done no good.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:17 am 
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In all the confusion, I forgot to recommend Reaction Ad-libs by Gary Darwin. He's got some great lines in there.

Also Laughing Out Loud by Aldo Columbini
&
Keep 'em Laughin' by Aldo Columbini


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:09 pm 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
My last post was a joke in an attempt to lighten the mood Clarissa.

As for your posts not being argumentative - give me a break.
You've established a pattern of encouraging and participating in arguments, finding yourself outclassed in the discussion, then claiming that you where never arguing at all - just clarifying. It's typical of internet arguments.
This clarifies why you don't like the magiccafe. Here only one person called you on it, there everyone would call you on it. The folks at the cafe force you to act like an adult, which apparently doesn't sit well with you.

Was I arguing, sure. The differences are, 1)I don't mind admitting that I was arguing andb 2)my arguments could only benefit YOU. As stated several times, my entire point was that you're sutting out a huge amount of great material over 3 words of patter and your ignorance of the vast reach of the "Card Revelation" plot.

Could I have expressed the same point simply by saying, "Keep an open mind."? Sure; but like me you have both a strong personality and a stubbron streak - such a simple answer would have done no good.


Hate to break it to you, But I have gotten some wonderful comments from people at the cafe... the main reason I do not go there as often is as I said..Partly intimidation.

A lot of people that go there are people I admire. I cannot really feel comfortable enough to be myself there yet. here as I expressed are people that are at my level or within reach. More often than not at the cafe, I am very intimidated. So I do not go there as much yet.

Here the problem with you is, that you seem to think you know everything. and feel compelled to argue, and argue, and argue...as you are doing now. Have a nice day. I will of course read another post from you...correcting me on this one..do not expect a reply.

If it makes you feel better that it is because you " outclassed" me...feel free.


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