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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Ok... it seems I was misunderstood again in this case. So this is gonna be a long post I think... just trying to make some things clear for everybody who ever misunderstood me here, ok? I mean I really don't know if it's because of my limited ability to be articulate in english, or if the words I look up in the dictionary have another meaning than I think in the moment... or if it's just that people don't judge me by what I say, but only by the word "Loyal". Whatever, I think it's just a communication problem, so let's go through every point and let me explain what I mean.


miniserb725 wrote:
You'll learn that adjones is the least likely person to want to start an argument.


I don't know anybody here personally, but I guess that you're right that adjones didn't meant his comment as provocative as I took it. He got me in the wrong moment, so I'm sorry if my reaction sounded a little *bleep*ed-off. I'm just so tired of being judged by being a Loyal constantly. This is only one part of my personality. However, I didn't want to sound cruel.


miniserb725 wrote:
What he's trying to point out is that you're calling others "narrow minded" and "ignorant", but are doing the same by not budging an inch on Criss.


That's definitely not true. Let me first explain what I meant by "narrow-minded": in this case thecooltonto gave me the opinion that in his eyes Criss can do no right, is not able to do anything without camera editing, and was extremely doubting the prove (Guinness Book record) I offered, without an own research- because he's prejudiced against him. I completely understand that the other side is narrow-minded as well, those who claim things like Criss never used camera editing or can do no wrong, just because they are fans of his and believe every word he says to be true. But how did I ever give you the opinion that I were one of those people? To this point, I was only talking about facts and how they built my opinion in this case. Maybe I should mention now that to be loyal doesn't necessarily mean to idealize a person and like everything he says and does. To be loyal means to show firm and constant support to somebody, even though he makes mistakes and has a side which is not so adorable. I never claimed anything different, did I? I admitted he used camera editing, for example- and was just offering facts to show that in this case he didn't need any. I affirm to be a very open-minded person. Before I make an opinion about anything, I try to understand every angle, research for facts, think about different possibilities and so on.


LoyalAnanya wrote:
alexo wrote:
The ambulence part was BS though. Kinda weird when a paramedic looks and has the same name as your costume designer.
Just got curious about that and watched that part again. But I don't know who you mean, the faces of the paramedics are not shown close-up and not mentioned with names?


I quote this dialogue because you quoted it in this context, miniserb725. Is this the point you meant by saying I would not "budge an inch on Criss"? Then this was a misunderstanding again- and again the only reason I can think of is the word "Loyal" in my name, but I already responded to that.
Why do I think you jugded my question by it? Because it was only a factual question, a neutral question! Or maybe the word "curious" was wrong? Should I have used "inquisitive"? Look, if I were narrow-minded enough to think what alexo wrote couldn't be true, I wouldn't even have replied to it. It's only that when I hear something and I get interested in if it's true or not, I do a research. In this case I watched the certain part of the video again and couldn't find the person alexo meant, so I asked- hoping for a factual answer, something like "it's that guy there, you can find the name here". That's how I would answer such a question. And btw., why should I actually want to start an argumentation with alexo? What he wrote about the metamorphosis confirmed what I was saying before, I am glad that he has seen it in a live show and in this context knows that what I was trying to say before is true.

EDIT:
miniserb725 wrote:
I just dislike when people pointlessly go back and forth about something and neither will admit that the other is right about anything.

-JT


We share this opinion, and I hope you now understand that this was exactly what I meant as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Actually, I was talking more about Criss than LoyalAnanya, but I guess it would work that way, too. :lol: And no, I wasn't trying to start an argument, or "rile you up" or anything of that sort. I just pointed out something in your post that I thought "didn't fit", that's all.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:12 pm 
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The alexo quote wasn't what I was referring to, it just happened to be at the end of your post and I forgot to remove it.

I don't think you're closed-minded at all, I was just trying to explain what adjones meant. Just for your own sanity, I'd recommend not trying to debate or convince others about Criss here. A lot of people are very set in their ways. I used to be all outspoken and "anti-Criss", but now I couldn't really care less. To me, there's no point arguing about something that has no bearing on my magic or life.

And please, call me JT

-JT


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:32 am 
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Just to clarify. The "paramedic" was in the metamorphosis episode who took his assistant Melanie away. The paramedic was named as Yolan Pintar who also is Angel's costume designer and the guest person on Masterminds 2 DVD. They show her on screen and it's clear that they are the same person.

On Mindfreak I think of Criss Angel as a fictional character played by Christopher Sarantakos. It's basically a stage show using the streets as a back drop and you can decide if you like that format or not. Personally I like Criss on stage where he belongs, but on the TV show I don't always like.
I really hope that "Believe" restores the old Angel and he concentrates more on that and lets the TV show retire.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:37 am 
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Ok JT. :) I know what you mean... I was already scrolling through some other topics in this section and I wouldn't reply there because of that. I only posted in 2 topics because I thought I could contribute something factual, it wasn't my aim to convince anybody of my personal opinions. But you're right that sometimes it's better to not say anything at all... I learned that it always comes to an emotional level anytime and that's not what I wanted.

Adjones, now that you replied you didn't even mean me, sorry again! However, isn't it interesting how a little disaccord can cause such a huge discussion? Let's leave it at that. :)

Alexo, thank you very much for answering! I just watched the video again. Ehm... after this big discussion I'm really afraid to be contrary to it! :lol: Yes she is shown in the video, but the reason I didn't know that you meant her was that when she is on the screen, the subtitle says "wardrobe", not "paramedical". But I've seen the tv version of the video again now, and there that cannot clearly be seen because of an advertisement on the right corner, so it's really confusing (you can only see "war" if you look closely). Also because she walks next to the paramedics when they take Melanie away.
I agree to what you said about Mindfreak and the stage show. I really hope I will be able to see the live show someday... far away from my budget though, especially if I finally make the decision to purchase a pretty expensive trick I love and want to learn. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:39 pm 
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What's the expensive trick? I might be able to advise you


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Thank you, though I know even if I'd purchase it, I think to date I'm far away from being able to perform it...

There are several effects I would love to do in the future, but the one that comes to my mind as a first choice is Keith Lack's "Signed Card From Chest"! :D
I am a beginner at doing magic, to date there are only a few tricks with coins and cards I can do- I did them for friends, to date I'm not really planing to become a professional. I don't know if that's a good idea, but at the moment my plan is to concentrate on only a few tricks, but with an amazing effect, and master them to surprise my environment. Of course I understand that I have to practice the basics of magic first, like sleight-of-hand, that's what I'm doing at the moment. But what I love most are the outrageous, creepy tricks- and I know enough people in my environment who love them, too. What I need to know about "Signed Card From Chest" is, for example, if it's possible to modify the gimmicks- it's made mor male performers. And if I can use it again and again or only one time... And, of course, if it's even possible to master it as a beginner. :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:13 am 
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Ok look I know Angel has a record for metamorphisis. (I do however find it hard to believe its a legit record though, however I have no way to know since I know nothing about how that is judged)

So since he does have a record for metamorphisis, he -probably- can do it fast. Its possible. He is a professional stage magician, and a decent one too for stage because he knows what presentation and style he wants to create on stage, which is a very important part of a stage show in my opinion.

BUT.... that does not mean he did metamorphisis without edits on Mindfreak. If you watch it, especially in slow motion, the odds are greatly against that because you can tell there is an edit almost just by watching because things move around a lot too quickly. It has the same appearance as when he has used the edit of filling the screen with smoke or flash before, which is an edit Angel uses a lot on mindfreak.

Also its the same exact movements and positions and stuff as his old way of performing it, and it seems that if he was using some faster way of doing it the faster methods would involve different movements and stuff than his older way of performing it.

And if he can perform metamorphisis at lightning speed, doesn't doing it that fast with flash for cover run an extremely high risk of failure? It would be taking a huge risk to perform it with only 1 second of cover of flash in front of tons of people since the cover created by a flash could not be controlled like a cloth could because if you were a split second too slow, the flash would be gone and you would screw up, where with a cloth you could keep cover slightly longer than planned. So I know if it was me performing some lightning fast metamorphisis live for tons of people, I would do it with cloth for cover, not uncontrollable flash, or either do a slower more sure method using flash for cover. Those just seem like the likely options to me.

I think Angel performed his older, slower metamorphisis with flash for cover, filled the camera's view with flash, and then edited out a length of time to make the metamorphisis look lightning fast. Thats not saying he cannot do it that fast, although I'm doubtful of even with a record saying it, its just saying that is not what he did on mindfreak in my opinion.

And if he did not edit it, then why did he fill the screen with flash? Why not have a far off view to prove there was no editing going on?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:01 am 
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thecooltonto wrote:
Ok look I know Angel has a record for metamorphisis. (I do however find it hard to believe its a legit record though, however I have no way to know since I know nothing about how that is judged)

So since he does have a record for metamorphisis, he -probably- can do it fast. Its possible. He is a professional stage magician, and a decent one too for stage because he knows what presentation and style he wants to create on stage, which is a very important part of a stage show in my opinion.

BUT.... that does not mean he did metamorphisis without edits on Mindfreak. If you watch it, especially in slow motion, the odds are greatly against that because you can tell there is an edit almost just by watching because things move around a lot too quickly. It has the same appearance as when he has used the edit of filling the screen with smoke or flash before, which is an edit Angel uses a lot on mindfreak.

Also its the same exact movements and positions and stuff as his old way of performing it, and it seems that if he was using some faster way of doing it the faster methods would involve different movements and stuff than his older way of performing it.

And if he can perform metamorphisis at lightning speed, doesn't doing it that fast with flash for cover run an extremely high risk of failure? It would be taking a huge risk to perform it with only 1 second of cover of flash in front of tons of people since the cover created by a flash could not be controlled like a cloth could because if you were a split second too slow, the flash would be gone and you would screw up, where with a cloth you could keep cover slightly longer than planned. So I know if it was me performing some lightning fast metamorphisis live for tons of people, I would do it with cloth for cover, not uncontrollable flash, or either do a slower more sure method using flash for cover. Those just seem like the likely options to me.

I think Angel performed his older, slower metamorphisis with flash for cover, filled the camera's view with flash, and then edited out a length of time to make the metamorphisis look lightning fast. Thats not saying he cannot do it that fast, although I'm doubtful of even with a record saying it, its just saying that is not what he did on mindfreak in my opinion.

And if he did not edit it, then why did he fill the screen with flash? Why not have a far off view to prove there was no editing going on?


He used the flash because he wasn't using a cloth. If there was no flash, then the illusion would of been revealed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
thecooltonto wrote:
Ok look I know Angel has a record for metamorphisis. (I do however find it hard to believe its a legit record though, however I have no way to know since I know nothing about how that is judged)

So since he does have a record for metamorphisis, he -probably- can do it fast. Its possible. He is a professional stage magician, and a decent one too for stage because he knows what presentation and style he wants to create on stage, which is a very important part of a stage show in my opinion.

BUT.... that does not mean he did metamorphisis without edits on Mindfreak. If you watch it, especially in slow motion, the odds are greatly against that because you can tell there is an edit almost just by watching because things move around a lot too quickly. It has the same appearance as when he has used the edit of filling the screen with smoke or flash before, which is an edit Angel uses a lot on mindfreak.

Also its the same exact movements and positions and stuff as his old way of performing it, and it seems that if he was using some faster way of doing it the faster methods would involve different movements and stuff than his older way of performing it.

And if he can perform metamorphisis at lightning speed, doesn't doing it that fast with flash for cover run an extremely high risk of failure? It would be taking a huge risk to perform it with only 1 second of cover of flash in front of tons of people since the cover created by a flash could not be controlled like a cloth could because if you were a split second too slow, the flash would be gone and you would screw up, where with a cloth you could keep cover slightly longer than planned. So I know if it was me performing some lightning fast metamorphisis live for tons of people, I would do it with cloth for cover, not uncontrollable flash, or either do a slower more sure method using flash for cover. Those just seem like the likely options to me.

I think Angel performed his older, slower metamorphisis with flash for cover, filled the camera's view with flash, and then edited out a length of time to make the metamorphisis look lightning fast. Thats not saying he cannot do it that fast, although I'm doubtful of even with a record saying it, its just saying that is not what he did on mindfreak in my opinion.

And if he did not edit it, then why did he fill the screen with flash? Why not have a far off view to prove there was no editing going on?


He used the flash because he wasn't using a cloth. If there was no flash, then the illusion would of been revealed.


Yeah, exactly. But I know how it's done and I don't understand how the switch could be done that fast.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:19 pm 
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Now I'm able to relate to your arguments, thecooltonto, thanks for explaining what you mean at great length. Though the discussion is passing beyond my knowledge, both in magic techniques and camera editing... so, unfortunately I'm unable to reply to the risks of failure you mentioned or the reason why the whole screen was filled with the flash. Maybe it was really to cover an edit, maybe it was just to give the tv audience the same view that the live audience had. The audience was so close to the stage, so they also didn't see anything at that moment.
The final result for me is that now I'm getting even more curious about watching the new live show to see if he really does it exactly the same way then! :D

But something just comes to my mind, and maybe one of you knows if it's true. In the episode Criss says that he is not only the fastest, but also the first magician doing the illusion without a towel or other piece of cloth. Is that true or has anybody seen another magician doing it that way before?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:10 am 
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Well I'm sure someone has done it with smoke and/or flash before Angel, but its possible he is the first to just do it with flash and/or smoke like all the time.

I think you're starting to get where I'm coming from now though. Angel could have easily had a shot of the illusion far enough away to where you could see around the flash, like the stage area and stuff, where the stuff that needed to be covered by the flash still would be, which would have made editing harder and a little more trouble than Angel usually goes to. But instead he used an up-close shot where the flash filled the entire shot, which was either like you said to give the television audience the same basic view as the up-front audience, or the more likely reason was to cover an edit.

This is one of many reasons I don't care for Angel, I mean if his record for metamorphisis is legit then why not perform that for his show in whatever situation he needs for it? I'm just highly doubtful that this was not edited since he chose to fill the screen with flash. If there was no editing, then all that did was make it look like there was an edit involved.

And maloney I know why the flash is there, go read my question again until you understand it. Even people that don't do magic get whats going on in metamorphisis to some point because its fairly simple, they just don't know quite how it happens really, unless of course its done lightning fast, which it usually is now days by most pro's anyway that I have seen do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:23 pm 
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blackwidowcd wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
thecooltonto wrote:
Ok look I know Angel has a record for metamorphisis. (I do however find it hard to believe its a legit record though, however I have no way to know since I know nothing about how that is judged)

So since he does have a record for metamorphisis, he -probably- can do it fast. Its possible. He is a professional stage magician, and a decent one too for stage because he knows what presentation and style he wants to create on stage, which is a very important part of a stage show in my opinion.

BUT.... that does not mean he did metamorphisis without edits on Mindfreak. If you watch it, especially in slow motion, the odds are greatly against that because you can tell there is an edit almost just by watching because things move around a lot too quickly. It has the same appearance as when he has used the edit of filling the screen with smoke or flash before, which is an edit Angel uses a lot on mindfreak.

Also its the same exact movements and positions and stuff as his old way of performing it, and it seems that if he was using some faster way of doing it the faster methods would involve different movements and stuff than his older way of performing it.

And if he can perform metamorphisis at lightning speed, doesn't doing it that fast with flash for cover run an extremely high risk of failure? It would be taking a huge risk to perform it with only 1 second of cover of flash in front of tons of people since the cover created by a flash could not be controlled like a cloth could because if you were a split second too slow, the flash would be gone and you would screw up, where with a cloth you could keep cover slightly longer than planned. So I know if it was me performing some lightning fast metamorphisis live for tons of people, I would do it with cloth for cover, not uncontrollable flash, or either do a slower more sure method using flash for cover. Those just seem like the likely options to me.

I think Angel performed his older, slower metamorphisis with flash for cover, filled the camera's view with flash, and then edited out a length of time to make the metamorphisis look lightning fast. Thats not saying he cannot do it that fast, although I'm doubtful of even with a record saying it, its just saying that is not what he did on mindfreak in my opinion.

And if he did not edit it, then why did he fill the screen with flash? Why not have a far off view to prove there was no editing going on?


He used the flash because he wasn't using a cloth. If there was no flash, then the illusion would of been revealed.


Yeah, exactly. But I know how it's done and I don't understand how the switch could be done that fast.


I know how it was done. I also know how Henning's " Things that go bump in the night" is done. This is Henning's effect, not Houdini's Metamorphosis. That anyone can think that ... This is Houdini'd effect is just clever disguise of the effect. If anyone has not seen it, then watch Celebracadabra's last episode, you'll see it.

There is an effect the magician is in a box, and he holds three cloths in front of himself... one By one, each cloth seems to have a shape underneath each in spite the fact that the box with the magician in it is supposedly empty except for the magician.

Step two... a screen drops to cover the magician, as he drops on the floor. Never adecquately explained. Then each of the shapes to each side shows a lovely assistant. The center shape turns out to be the magician. Somehow he was under the center shape while still being in the box...

Anyone that knows enough about stage magic knows how that is done. Fact is, all it requirews is working knowledge of a very important card sleight. If you know card magic, you can also figure that out.

Now, with that in mind. Compare that with Criss going into the box.

If you know both effects, some basic stage magic, and some basic card magic. you'll know what I am referring to. if you don't then I cannot explain without exposing.

How did Criss get into Guiness? since there is no physical way it can be done as fast as he appears to do it?

Simple. He cheated. I do not think Guiness has the magical expertise to know that what Criss performed was NOT Metamorphosis. To them it LOOKED like Metamorphosis. Because it was clothed to look like Metamorphosis.

It was the climax part of "Things that go bump in the night" disguised to LOOK like Metamorphosis.

While that is rather ingenious, I feel it is unfair to The Pendragons to have their record stolen. They actually performed Metamorphosis. All Criss did was deceive people into thinking he did Metamorphosis. When he really did something else. To laymen and it seems to some magicians it may look the same, and the fact is, that by calling it Metamorphosis, he sets everyone up into a false reference, the fact is, Once you start asking the RIGHT questions...the method is quite transparent.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:31 am 
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Thank you for clarifying that, I absolutely agree that is what he did to get his record for metamorphisis.

And since he can pull off the same effect as metamorphisis that fast using a different method, I think he actually did a slower metamorphisis and edited it on mindfreak using the fact that by a different method he can do it faster as the justification or reason as why to edit it faster on tv in his mind or whatever.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:12 pm 
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clarissa35f wrote:
To them it LOOKED like Metamorphosis. Because it was clothed to look like Metamorphosis.


I always thought Metamorphosis is just the effect, the part of the illusion people can see. Thus to disappear and reappear as fast as possible, whether it's done by getting caged in a box and reappearing on top of it, or with a cloth in a different way.
What I mean is that I thought, when it looks like metamorphosis, then it is- and the method, everything what happens out of view, is up to the magician, but doesn't change the illusion or the definition of it. Isn't an illusion almost always named after the effect?

Thanks clarissa, I learned something new today, though I'm still far away from understanding everything... :? :wink:
I don't get why different ways to do an illusion with the same visual effect are defined as different illusions. Of course that makes sense when it's discussed by magicians who know the details, but for the audience is only important what they see.


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