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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:27 pm 
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wow, Andre Kole must be angry with Criss now?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:37 pm 
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I don't know why but I was actually expecting this 4th season to be better than the rest. Maybe I thought they would learn from past mistakes or that the budget would be better.

Honestly so far with this first episode it is terrible. The illusions were weak, the stooges were obvious and the fake audience reactions were laughable.

His "impromptu" tricks were also obviously setup. It's embarrassing how bad Criss and his crew are. Magic tricks can fool anyone but Criss is just asking his audience to be stupid.

I believe this week he will escape from a building before it implodes live on tv. I'll be watching to see how much of the "live" footage is actually pre-recorded.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:19 pm 
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I have a question to that walking on water fight: what if Criss Angel just used a completely different method than Andre Kole? I have no idea about the whole thing, but I'm wondering how Criss could have stolen Kole's method if he didn't agree to reveal it to him. Also to date I've only seen a video of that guy standing on water, if anybody knows where to watch him walking on it, please post. Because in the Mindfreak episode they say that Criss is not the first to stand on water, but the first to walk on it and I'd really like to know if it's true. I guess it is, but if it's wrong I'd be happy to see a prove for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:19 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
I have a question to that walking on water fight: what if Criss Angel just used a completely different method than Andre Kole? I have no idea about the whole thing, but I'm wondering how Criss could have stolen Kole's method if he didn't agree to reveal it to him.

Hi. Well you have to look at it from the eyes of the audience. Even if the methods were completely different it still appears to be the same trick to the laymen. The end result is the same regardless of the method used.

I'm not sure how "into" magic you are but most secrets can be duplicated by other people. So Andre Kole doesn't have to reveal the secret if Criss and his crew can either figure it out for themselves or invent a new method.


LoyalAnanya wrote:
Also to date I've only seen a video of that guy standing on water, if anybody knows where to watch him walking on it, please post. Because in the Mindfreak episode they say that Criss is not the first to stand on water, but the first to walk on it and I'd really like to know if it's true. I guess it is, but if it's wrong I'd be happy to see a prove for it.

I wouldn't put to much into what Criss Angel and his crew say. They make up stuff all the time.


By the way I don't really think Andre Kole should be mad that Criss did his own walk on water trick. This is to be expected in magic. Everyone tries to do their own version and be better than the rest.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Hi KingMilo, thanks for the reply.
I'm a beginner in magic, so I also asked to know more about performance rights. I heard more than once now the statement that there were lawsuits running because of this, and I don't really understand that. It's like you said, magicians repeat each other's illusions all the time, whether it's about levitations, sawing themselves or others in half and so on- and everyone tries to do it better than the last who performed it. So I do understand when it's forbidden to steal a patented method and just repeat it, but I can hardly imagine that it's forbidden to figure out an own method for the same effect and perform it then. Though I am a beginner, of course I know that the professionals have the knowledge to figure many things out... but if you find out a method on your own, and maybe don't even know exactly if it's the method the other one used or if it's a completely new method, do you have the right to perform it then or not? :? I always thought it can't be forbidden, until I heard the rumours about this one.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:57 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
Hi KingMilo, thanks for the reply.
I'm a beginner in magic, so I also asked to know more about performance rights. I heard more than once now the statement that there were lawsuits running because of this, and I don't really understand that. It's like you said, magicians repeat each other's illusions all the time, whether it's about levitations, sawing themselves or others in half and so on- and everyone tries to do it better than the last who performed it. So I do understand when it's forbidden to steal a patented method and just repeat it, but I can hardly imagine that it's forbidden to figure out an own method for the same effect and perform it then. Though I am a beginner, of course I know that the professionals have the knowledge to figure many things out... but if you find out a method on your own, and maybe don't even know exactly if it's the method the other one used or if it's a completely new method, do you have the right to perform it then or not? :? I always thought it can't be forbidden, until I heard the rumours about this one.


I haven't heard of any lawsuits based simply on performance alone. If there are lawsuits they are most likely bogus attempts to get money or recognition for the trick. The thing about tricks are that the method used is a secret, so you can't really sue someone for doing a similar trick. Even if Criss did use the exact same method he can always just claim he invented a new way. No one would know since it is a secret.

The only legitimate lawsuit I can think of is that someone copied a patented device and tried to sell it as their own.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:12 pm 
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Thank you very much, that's exactly what I wanted to know! :) I thought that the law must be something like you just explained, but was confused by those rumours.

Edited P.S.: I'd still like to know if Andre Kole really performed the walking on water or just the standing on water, I searched for a video but didn't find one. Would be interesting to watch and compare both performances if he really did it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:37 am 
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But Andre Kole can raise his foot on water which clearly shows if he wanted to he could walk on water, and he did something Criss didn't (or couldn't) achieve, he rose with rising water.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1MSalaqdE


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:23 pm 
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sebishungry wrote:
But Andre Kole can raise his foot on water which clearly shows if he wanted to he could walk on water, and he did something Criss didn't (or couldn't) achieve, he rose with rising water.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1MSalaqdE



I've seen this one when I was searching. The thing is, that's on stage. On a stage you have full control of your environment, more possibilities of setup. It's a quite bigger challenge -and much more impressive- to perform it in a natural environment like a lake. The method could be a completely different one... I've seen a video of Barry and Stuart performing it on a stage with a kind of aquarium, too.
There are a few possibilities of how it could be done that the audience can imagine that it would work on a stage, but not on a lake. That's why the walking on lake is so impressive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:47 pm 
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It doesn't matter who invented it or what, Criss has a better version and he performs it better.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
It doesn't matter who invented it or what, Criss has a better version and he performs it better.

And THAT is where many disagree. Those with magical knowledge can pin-point the subtle nuances that make a magic effect great or fall flat.

The laymen, seeing it for the first time - whomever performs it, will think they did it best...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:53 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
It doesn't matter who invented it or what, Criss has a better version and he performs it better.

And THAT is where many disagree. Those with magical knowledge can pin-point the subtle nuances that make a magic effect great or fall flat.

The laymen, seeing it for the first time - whomever performs it, will think they did it best...


Yes but Criss Angel walks and water and Andre Kole stands on it. Right there you can tell which is better.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
It doesn't matter who invented it or what, Criss has a better version and he performs it better.

And THAT is where many disagree. Those with magical knowledge can pin-point the subtle nuances that make a magic effect great or fall flat.

The laymen, seeing it for the first time - whomever performs it, will think they did it best...


Yes but Criss Angel walks and water and Andre Kole stands on it. Right there you can tell which is better.

You’re completely missing the point. Criss Angel stole this effect from someone else. It doesn’t matter if you think he did it better or not, it was never his effect to perform in the first place. If you had never heard of Kole or Angel, the plain and simple truth is Magicians have been performing variations on this effect many times before…

It’s pretty tacky on Criss Angel’s part to accept accolades for an effect that does not belong to him.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:37 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
DerZauberer wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
It doesn't matter who invented it or what, Criss has a better version and he performs it better.

And THAT is where many disagree. Those with magical knowledge can pin-point the subtle nuances that make a magic effect great or fall flat.

The laymen, seeing it for the first time - whomever performs it, will think they did it best...


Yes but Criss Angel walks and water and Andre Kole stands on it. Right there you can tell which is better.

You’re completely missing the point. Criss Angel stole this effect from someone else. It doesn’t matter if you think he did it better or not, it was never his effect to perform in the first place. If you had never heard of Kole or Angel, the plain and simple truth is Magicians have been performing variations on this effect many times before…

It’s pretty tacky on Criss Angel’s part to accept accolades for an effect that does not belong to him.


The only magician I ever heard of doing this is Angel. Who's the "other magicians" you speak of? And just because Kole did it first doesn't mean Angel can't do it and make it famous.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
The only magician I ever heard of doing this is Angel. Who's the "other magicians" you speak of? And just because Kole did it first doesn't mean Angel can't do it and make it famous.

Penn and Teller did it on a TV special. David Copperfield did a variation as well.
I am not going to do ALL the research for you. If you are truly interested in magic, look it up. You need a foundation in the History of Magic to succeed as a magician anyway.

And one thing you need to understand – there is a Code of Ethics with magicians - Do not steal another magician’s material. So you are wrong in saying that “Angel can do it anyway.” Angel asked for permission to do this effect and was denied. He did it anyway. How ethical is that?

So here is the Grand reason that you and other Loyals just don’t get; No matter how “cool”, “awesome” or “Inspirational” you think Criss Angel is, he has insulted and belittled other professional magicians for his own ego. That is why the professional community dislikes him.


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