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Should there be a name change to "TV Magic"
Yes 71%  71%  [ 15 ]
No 29%  29%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 21
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:50 pm 
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In most cases, it's who does it first that counts. After that you risk being labelled a copycat or worse.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
And why do you think Criss Angel should not be in the Hall of Fame? He has performed some of the biggest, thought-provoking illusions ever. Just to name a few where I guess even you guys here have to admit that they can't have been camera tricks:

-> he walked on water
Andre Kole invented this, and did it first. Criss performed it against Andre's wishes

-> he levitated over the Luxor light
Copperfield levitated over the Grand Canyon. The GRAND CANYON!!

-> he holds the world's record on Metamorphosis, the fastest ever and the first to do it that fast without a cloth
Even after surviving an arrow through his chest, the Pendragons still do it better

-> he saws himself in half without any boxes
Copperfield did his "Buzz Saw" illusion many years earlier


I could write more, but for me that's already enough to justify his place in the Hall of Fame. Not hardly.

As for his upcoming stunt with the imploding building? Yep, Copperfield did that one before too.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:10 pm 
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First of all, I hope I don't get trouble for keeping this going on because it's not on topic- but I'm replying to a moderator, so I guess it's ok. :wink:

You're right DaveV, the magicians you named are also great and I never said anything different. Just to name one, I think Copperfield belongs in the Hall of Fame as well, he's done some amazing illusions that will never be forgotten in the history of magic. But I don't think that your examples decry what Criss did. Oh, and Copperfield uses boxes for his saw illusion, he removes them during the performance, but he uses them. Criss doesn't need them at all. If you can name any magician who does it the way how Criss does it, I will take back that point. As far as I know there is nobody, but correct me if I'm wrong. And levitations are illusions that magicians always attempted and hopefully will always come up with new versions. The Luxor levitation was amazing, whatever others did before. I've seen the Andre Kole video you posted at another topic, but he's only standing on water, not walking on it. If he really walked on water as well, please tell me where I can watch it. It's an interesting point, but I haven't seen him doing that yet so I can't say anything about it.
I almost forgot, you asked for the building implosion. It will be very different than Copperfield's version. As I heard, he will be completely exposed during the escape, starting on a balcony in full view of the live audience. Let's just wait until it's done, I'm sure it will be amazing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:32 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
I don't think that your examples decry what Criss did. Actually that's exactly what they do, people have either done better versions of the ones you listed, or done them before Criss.

Oh, and Copperfield uses boxes for his saw illusion, he removes them during the performance, but he uses them. Criss doesn't need them at all. If you can name any magician who does it the way how Criss does it, I will take back that point. So if I reinvent ANY trick done by a professional magician, then get shown doing the better version does that solidify my spot in the hall of fame?

And levitations are illusions that magicians always attempted and hopefully will always come up with new versions. The Luxor levitation was amazing, whatever others did before. This is pure opinion, which you chastised me for placing in this thread before. Simply put, people would be more impressed with someone levitating over the grand canyon instead of a light at the top of a building. Even if it is a freaking huge light.

I've seen the Andre Kole video you posted at another topic, but he's only standing on water, not walking on it. If he really walked on water as well, please tell me where I can watch it. It's an interesting point, but I haven't seen him doing that yet so I can't say anything about it. The point DaveV was making was that Criss used Andre's trick without his permission. Therefore, it is possible with Andre's trick to walk on water. It's not his fault that the video just shows him standing there.

I almost forgot, you asked for the building implosion. It will be very different than Copperfield's version. As I heard, he will be completely exposed during the escape, starting on a balcony in full view of the live audience. For one, this is just you stating what you've heard, not necessarily fact. Two, you're trusting that Criss' "live audience" truly is live, which it may not be. Third, you're also trusting that the audience is not full of stooges.


So as I see it, DaveV has shown you why Criss has done nothing new for the world of magic (through your examples mind you) which would prove why he does not deserve a spot in the hall of fame. Just because he's on TV and you like him does not mean he should be there. I know we're seen as a forum of Criss haters, but we have reason to. By your logic, if I go out, improve a trick that some pro does, show it to people, get shown doing it on TV, then do a few other tricks that people have already done, then I too deserve a spot in the hall of fame. Same with any other magician who has done such.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:44 pm 
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I have seen everything Criss Angel has done since Supernatural, where he looked even more like an idiot, yet was his best TV special; but that isn't saying much. Also having been involved in the art for almost 30 years now I believe I am qualified to judge whether magic is "good" or not. The problem is that Angel does not do real magic by its core definition. He mostly does "crap" while grunting and moaning, and showing his 8 cavity fillings every episode.

I can go on and on too, but I won't.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Bucky310, I already posted a question about the walk on water discussion in another topic. I don't know much about it, so I asked for information more detailed about the thing.
Let's not argue about opinions... But when it comes to the building implosion, that's one thing where I got as many information as possible. Maybe you only heard about the 250 exclusive seats, but the whole event will be public. More than 10.000 spectators are expected. But why discuss about it now, let's talk again when it's finally done.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:19 pm 
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I won't be watching it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Well how come the dude who created walking on water isn't know at all? Did he even perform it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
Well how come the dude who created walking on water isn't know at all? Did he even perform it?


DaveV posted a video on page 3 of the "Criss Angel season 4" topic. The guy is standing on water, that's all I've seen of it to date. That's the topic where I asked for more information.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:17 am 
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Maloney123 wrote:
Well how come the dude who created walking on water isn't know at all? Did he even perform it?
Yes, he's very well known. I don't know his exact age, but it's almost safe to say Andre's been inventing magic longer than Criss has been alive, or at least before Criss ever thought of getting into magic. Andre is one of the most creative illusion inventors in the business. David Copperfield for one, has been performing Andre Kole's creations before anyone ever heard of Criss Angel.

Andre's "walking on water" was originally a stage illusion (video is on YouTube) that he adapted for open water on a lake. In the video clip he doesn't walk forward as far as we can tell, but he's not anchored to one place. He can lift one foot at a time to show there's no connection, which implies that whatever mechanism he uses could easily be adapted to go one foot in front of another instead of side by side, which was necessary in the stage version for space reasons.

What bothers me is that Criss knew it was Andre's creation, Criss asked permission, Criss was denied permission, and he did it anyway. Independent creation is one thing, but if he truly had an independent method, why would he have approached Kole in the first place? Professional courtesy? Apparently not or he wouldn't have performed it anyway.

Illegal? Perhaps not. Unethical? Absolutely! It is Andre Kole's "Signature Piece." It's not public domain, it's not for public consumption, it's not for sale. Andre Kole deserves credit for the invention. He also deserves respect from other magicians not to "borrow" his creative endeavors until he's ready to retire it from his show and release it for others to duplicate. It's simple professional courtesy.

Does Criss stay around and greet all 1500 of his "loyals?" Of course, that's his fan base. That's where the money is. I'd like to see some of that courtesy extended toward the people who deserve it. Namely the other magicians he stepped on during his rise to fame.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:35 am 
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DaveV wrote:
Maloney123 wrote:
Well how come the dude who created walking on water isn't know at all? Did he even perform it?
Yes, he's very well known. I don't know his exact age, but it's almost safe to say Andre's been inventing magic longer than Criss has been alive, or at least before Criss ever thought of getting into magic. Andre is one of the most creative illusion inventors in the business. David Copperfield for one, has been performing Andre Kole's creations before anyone ever heard of Criss Angel.

Andre's "walking on water" was originally a stage illusion (video is on YouTube) that he adapted for open water on a lake. In the video clip he doesn't walk forward as far as we can tell, but he's not anchored to one place. He can lift one foot at a time to show there's no connection, which implies that whatever mechanism he uses could easily be adapted to go one foot in front of another instead of side by side, which was necessary in the stage version for space reasons.

What bothers me is that Criss knew it was Andre's creation, Criss asked permission, Criss was denied permission, and he did it anyway. Independent creation is one thing, but if he truly had an independent method, why would he have approached Kole in the first place? Professional courtesy? Apparently not or he wouldn't have performed it anyway.

Illegal? Perhaps not. Unethical? Absolutely! It is Andre Kole's "Signature Piece." It's not public domain, it's not for public consumption, it's not for sale. Andre Kole deserves credit for the invention. He also deserves respect from other magicians not to "borrow" his creative endeavors until he's ready to retire it from his show and release it for others to duplicate. It's simple professional courtesy.

Does Criss stay around and greet all 1500 of his "loyals?" Of course, that's his fan base. That's where the money is. I'd like to see some of that courtesy extended toward the people who deserve it. Namely the other magicians he stepped on during his rise to fame.


Angel made walking on water famous, nobody's even heard of this Kole person.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:23 am 
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Correction, you haven't heard of "this Kole person". Many people have heard of him. Actually dare I say, most experienced magicians know who he is.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:25 am 
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http://www.andrekole.org/david-copperfield.htm

http://www.andrekole.org/media.htm

Not all great magicians perform on television. That's why we're proposing changing the name of this forum, to separate the media darlings from the other working professionals.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:36 am 
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agreed it should be changed there has been some repeats of the World's Greatest Magic on TV lately that could/should have been discussed, and other TV appearances like Letterman's week of magicians etc. I think that TV Magic is a good title..

:D


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:20 pm 
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bucky310 wrote:
Correction, you haven't heard of "this Kole person". Many people have heard of him. Actually dare I say, most experienced magicians know who he is.


Yeah exactly, experienced magicians know who he is - not the spectators. Everyone I talk to here in my town knows who Criss Angel and David Copperfield is, they haven't even heard of Blaine or Burton, let alone Kole. By the way, Lance Burton should be known to most because he is the second best magician behind Criss Angel. Bash me if you want.



600th post!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:33 pm 
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Maloney123 wrote:
Angel made walking on water famous, nobody's even heard of this Kole person.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but some guy about 2000 years ago made walking on water famous.
When you say “nobody” you are only referring to yourself. Countless magicians have performed a variation of this effect; heck, I even saw the lead singer of the Cars did it in a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bEu9wLDjKY


Just accept it – Criss did not invent this illusion - Your youth is exposing your unawareness.


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