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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:00 pm 
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Sirbrad what I meant was lots of people buy a gimmick,don't practice and think they can do magic. Yes I agree that gimmicks are good especially as you stated when used with sleight. But why buy a pull vanisher or some gaffed decks when you can use sleight to acomplish an effect that is extremely examinable. Yes some tricks relay on gimmicks only. But I like sleight because for the most part you are clean and everything can immediatly be examined. Gimmicks are too,but the one I work with for the most part are not immediatly examinable,i.e. require switches or duplicats to be examiable. I understand this. But sleight can go along way too. I don't think I clearly stated what I wanted to above so thanks for correcting me.

Edit: Thank you for the link to your essay. I guess something else I sould have said was that I am a mostly close up man. SO I get more scrutiney then as you said someone working on stage.


Last edited by PatrickS on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:08 pm 
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My goodness....

Sirbrad:

Quote:
*If your spectators "have an idea" you are using gimmicks, you should not be performing yet. They are no aware of that term, this is known as "magician paranoia," which again only beginners generally suffer from.*


Speaking of TT's, i have had AUDIENCES claim i was using one. I have had audiences want to look at my deck of cards suggesting i am using a gimmicked pack, that they are in some special order, that they are one of those special packs a friend of their's has.

In the few times i have been charged with using a TT, i was not even doing an effect that you could do with a TT.
People don't always think like that. They know a method, any method, they will blurt it out. How many people here have been told they are using their sleeves when in fact most of us rarely do ? Even a card trick where there is no way sleeving would help at all.

Do i roll up my sleeves before i perform anyway just so that idea cannot pop into their heads ? Yes i do.

Stage illusions, how many people have heard a non-magician say "He/she is using mirrors" when 99.9% of the time, there isn't a mirror anywhere near that illusion.

I do not bend over backwards in order to remove all the doubts that could have at any time during the performance otherwise i would never finish an effect, but i will casually dispel many methods without saying a word.

In some cases, my client has bought my props for me. On at least 5 occasions before a TV performance i have been challenged with an ungimmicked pack of cards to use for the appearance and i could do so and do the mind breaking effect i had already chosen to perform.

I don't think it is always because they want to catch me out, but they use it as a little novelty "These aren't trick cards, we gave them to him !"
Only once i have said 'no' and that was because the cards they gave me were so cheap and tacky they would not even fan slightly. Fortunately i had a brand new sealed deck i told them to open and examine before i went on.

Sure, i could have come up with some excuse as to why they could not touch my cards, shuffle them or even look at them.
One could suggest that you are giving something away if people are suspicious about your props, well that is certainly the case sometimes, but OTHER times, i have been asked before i even did a trick.
It could be a case of audience control, they shouldn't even ask if you are presenting properly, that also is the case sometimes, but OTHER times, people are just curious and often insistant.

I used to use gimmicks all the time and i don't care if other people do. Using a gimmick does not make you any more or less a professional when it comes to performance. Whatever helps you make the presentation more memorable then by all means use it ! The invisible deck, what an absolute killer trick that is if done properly !

Personally i find that i present better when i am not using them and that's why i don't. It is part of my character and performance style.

So before we start telling other people what works for them, maybe we should look at what works for us and why.

m.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:30 pm 
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Examinations are for doctors, not spectators. If you structure your routines properly, have good scripts, have great audience management, and perform engaging magic; you will never have to worry about examinations. It is also depends on what type of shows you do. However when doing "close-up," you can waste a tremendous amount of time handing everything out, thus detracting from the show. Sometimes I may hand out 2 things that can be examined, and usually that is enough.

In fact I bluffed very well one time by asking if someone wanted to "examine this too,"(next effect) in which they said, "No, I know I won't find anything anyway." I told the story long ago here in more detail I believe. Sleight of hand should never be used "solely" as a form of entertainment, it can only go so far. I have seen master sleight of hand artists induce yawns and put crowds to sleep, and prop magicians use simple gimmicks which evoked thunderous applause.

Much of the time the only one really amazed by the magician's "finger-flicking is the magician himself. When you only use things that can be handed out, you sacrifice effect strength. Method seeking only comes to mind when your presentation and showmanship lack. I base these facts on almost 3 decades of real-world performances using both sleights and gimmicks.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:57 pm 
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sirbrad wrote:
Examinations are for doctors, not spectators. If you structure your routines properly, have good scripts, have great audience management, and perform engaging magic; you will never have to worry about examinations. It is also depends on what type of shows you do. However when doing "close-up," you can waste a tremendous amount of time handing everything out, thus detracting from the show. Sometimes I may hand out 2 things that can be examined, and usually that is enough.

In fact I bluffed very well one time by asking if someone wanted to "examine this too,"(next effect) in which they said, "No, I know I won't find anything anyway." I told the story long ago here in more detail I believe. Sleight of hand should never be used "solely" as a form of entertainment, it can only go so far. I have seen master sleight of hand artists induce yawns and put crowds to sleep, and prop magicians use simple gimmicks which evoked thunderous applause.

Much of the time the only one really amazed by the magician's "finger-flicking is the magician himself. When you only use things that can be handed out, you sacrifice effect strength. Method seeking only comes to mind when your presentation and showmanship lack. I base these facts on almost 3 decades of real-world performances using both sleights and gimmicks.


Well no, examinations are for anybody who wants to examine something.

I did make the point that i have had people ask to look at my cards before they have even seen a trick.
Thankfully for me, i only use a couple of props so i do not have to 'waste lots of time' handing them out.

Since you just said you do, why do you hand one or two things out ? To enhance ? Or perhaps you want to dispel any notions they may or may not have about the things you are using.

On your other point, i have seen sleight of hand people bore the audiences to tears as well, but they weren't my audiences.
I have seen Presto Printo bore the audience to tears as well, but they may not have been YOUR audiences.
See a connection here ?

I have seen the opposite of what you suggest also, i have seen ambitious card done with a borrowed pack which absolutely brought the house down and i have seen the brainwave pack cause people to walk away bored.

Any trick using any method can bore or entertain.
So, i go back to my original point, what works for some doesn't work for others. If somebody feels better about doing something with a gimmick or they feel better by not using one you can be assured it will come out in their performances.

m.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:23 am 
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That was an isolated incident in which my spectator wanted to examine 2 effects that were indeed examinable. I then did an effect that wasn't examinable, but asked if he would like to see that too, or get on with the rest of the show. This was over 20 years ago but I always remember it. However I have improved obviously since then, and learned how to take examinability completely out of the equation.

Most "kids/newcomers" simply do an effect without any real patter or engaging scripts, which then of course is going to make audiences assume it is a "puzzle" they are being challeneged to figure out. Proof of this can be found on youtube. Kids want amazing effects that can be examined, yet require little skill. It doesn't work like that. Gimmicks seem to be shunned by amateur armchair-hobbyists, not working professionals. It doesn't matter if you do not want to use gimmicks, but what the reason is?

That question says a lot of about you as an alleged performer. An effect such as healed and sealed requires some set up, and may even require multiple gimmicks, depending on how you do it. However the impact of this effect is well worth it. I also highly doubt you seen someone bored to tears watching Presto Printo specifically. Maybe if you saw some 14-year old doing it in the mirror for the first time.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:16 am 
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sirbrad wrote:
That was an isolated incident in which my spectator wanted to examine 2 effects that were indeed examinable. I then did an effect that wasn't examinable, but asked if he would like to see that too, or get on with the rest of the show. This was over 20 years ago but I always remember it. However I have improved obviously since then, and learned how to take examinability completely out of the equation.

Most "kids/newcomers" simply do an effect without any real patter or engaging scripts, which then of course is going to make audiences assume it is a "puzzle" they are being challeneged to figure out. Proof of this can be found on youtube. Kids want amazing effects that can be examined, yet require little skill. It doesn't work like that. Gimmicks seem to be shunned by amateur armchair-hobbyists, not working professionals. It doesn't matter if you do not want to use gimmicks, but what the reason is?

That question says a lot of about you as an alleged performer. An effect such as healed and sealed requires some set up, and may even require multiple gimmicks, depending on how you do it. However the impact of this effect is well worth it. I also highly doubt you seen someone bored to tears watching Presto Printo specifically. Maybe if you saw some 14-year old doing it in the mirror for the first time.


You did indeed say " Sometimes I may hand out 2 things that can be examined, and usually that is enough. "

Must have been a slip.

Well we are not specifically talking about kids, i'm not anyway. But then again, i have seen younger people do magic and the audience loves them more than the person who has been doing it for decades. In fact, i saw a young guy not so long ago who did just that, he did a card trick on stage that absolutely slayed the audience more than the other professionals who had been doing magic longer than he had been alive.
His presentation was brilliant, and that is what matters.

And yes i have seen Presto Printo performed which bored the audience. And no this person was not 14 either, you have this thing with equating bad magic with age, she was older. Any person doing a trick, no matter how long they have performed, how technically brilliant they are can do some absolute tripe.

My point is that gimmicks or not, you can do magic brilliantly and baffle and entertain the audience. To suggest that somebody who uses gimmicks exclusively, or even occasionally, that makes them a better performer or magician by default is nonsense, pure nonsense. Nor the other way around.
I still don't see what the problem is, if somebody feels better being able to do the effects without gimmicks, then good for them ! Vice versa.

Healed and Sealed Soda is a great trick, i love seeing it. If it is being performed i am looking at the audience because i know if it is done right, they are going to go nuts. But that does not mean my non-gimmicked effects are any less impressive, if they were, i would not have had the success that i have had.

I do not equate gimmicks with no skill, not at all. I've used heaps of gimmicks in my time as a professional but i feel better not using them and there have been plenty of times i have been very glad about that. Doesn't make me better or worse than anybody else.

So, once again, gimmicks are good if you want to use them, no gimmicks is good if you dont want to use them, PRESENTATION matters. If you are happy about your magic then it will show in your presentation.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:43 am 
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Well, I love those magic tricks that done in front of you without any special affects specially card tricks. Now I have decided to learn a few, but the problem is I am doing know where to begin. Can you please suggest me a site/place from where I can start learning simple yet eye-catching magic tricks? Any helpful reference would be appreciated. Thanks a lot.
____________
learn magic tricks


Last edited by simbrony on Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:56 am 
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simbrony wrote:
Well, I love those magic tricks that done in front of you without any special affects specially card tricks. Now I have decided to learn a few, but the problem is I am doing know where to begin. Can you please suggest me a site/place from where I can start learning simple yet eye-catching magic tricks? Any helpful reference would be appreciated. Thanks a lot.


Hello Simbrony, welcome to the forums.
I must say, you have come to the right place, Penguin is a great place to get started. You jumping onto the forums is a good idea, as you can see in this thread alone there are lots of people with great ideas, other threads might help you even more.
If you like card tricks, check out the "Specialists" section under 'Cards' and you will see a whole bunch of people that are like you and i, love seeing those pasteboards fly :)

If you have seen some people doing the kinds of tricks you like then you may be able to ask specifically what you have to know in order to do things like that (probably not best to copy them 100%).
Penguin has lots of great books, tricks you can buy and DVD's! DVD's are really popular because you can pause and rewind and see the moves at various different angles.

You will not find anybody telling you how to do tricks here (maybe some sneaky people) because that is against the rules but there are some sites i am sure that will let you in on some basic tricks (google is your friend). If you really want to do some stuff that will really blow their socks off, chances are you have a lot of practice ahead of you but that is half the fun.

You can message me if you like or i am sure there are plenty of other people that can give you some tips and advice, like i said, you came to the right forums.

Welcome :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:08 pm 
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DaveV wrote:
I think he got the $20 and you didn't. That says a lot.


DaveV owned you man! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Incognito wrote:
sirbrad wrote:
That was an isolated incident in which my spectator wanted to examine 2 effects that were indeed examinable. I then did an effect that wasn't examinable, but asked if he would like to see that too, or get on with the rest of the show. This was over 20 years ago but I always remember it. However I have improved obviously since then, and learned how to take examinability completely out of the equation.

Most "kids/newcomers" simply do an effect without any real patter or engaging scripts, which then of course is going to make audiences assume it is a "puzzle" they are being challeneged to figure out. Proof of this can be found on youtube. Kids want amazing effects that can be examined, yet require little skill. It doesn't work like that. Gimmicks seem to be shunned by amateur armchair-hobbyists, not working professionals. It doesn't matter if you do not want to use gimmicks, but what the reason is?

That question says a lot of about you as an alleged performer. An effect such as healed and sealed requires some set up, and may even require multiple gimmicks, depending on how you do it. However the impact of this effect is well worth it. I also highly doubt you seen someone bored to tears watching Presto Printo specifically. Maybe if you saw some 14-year old doing it in the mirror for the first time.


You did indeed say " Sometimes I may hand out 2 things that can be examined, and usually that is enough. "

Must have been a slip.

Well we are not specifically talking about kids, i'm not anyway. But then again, i have seen younger people do magic and the audience loves them more than the person who has been doing it for decades. In fact, i saw a young guy not so long ago who did just that, he did a card trick on stage that absolutely slayed the audience more than the other professionals who had been doing magic longer than he had been alive.
His presentation was brilliant, and that is what matters.

And yes i have seen Presto Printo performed which bored the audience. And no this person was not 14 either, you have this thing with equating bad magic with age, she was older. Any person doing a trick, no matter how long they have performed, how technically brilliant they are can do some absolute tripe.

My point is that gimmicks or not, you can do magic brilliantly and baffle and entertain the audience. To suggest that somebody who uses gimmicks exclusively, or even occasionally, that makes them a better performer or magician by default is nonsense, pure nonsense. Nor the other way around.
I still don't see what the problem is, if somebody feels better being able to do the effects without gimmicks, then good for them ! Vice versa.

Healed and Sealed Soda is a great trick, i love seeing it. If it is being performed i am looking at the audience because i know if it is done right, they are going to go nuts. But that does not mean my non-gimmicked effects are any less impressive, if they were, i would not have had the success that i have had.

I do not equate gimmicks with no skill, not at all. I've used heaps of gimmicks in my time as a professional but i feel better not using them and there have been plenty of times i have been very glad about that. Doesn't make me better or worse than anybody else.

So, once again, gimmicks are good if you want to use them, no gimmicks is good if you dont want to use them, PRESENTATION matters. If you are happy about your magic then it will show in your presentation.




No slip, I said "sometimes" and "may" which does not say how often and when. At the time I was a lot younger, and trying to "overprove" what did not need overproving. Age is very conducent to be able to perform quality magic, as one must be well versed with their persona, communication, and life skills overall. No one under age 21 minimum is going to have that kind of experience and education.

You are speaking from a 14-year old's, or younger; point of view and they are never wrong at that age. The difference is that I have was where you were out long ago, but you were never where I am at now. Adults are taken seriously, most kids are not. Like I said, they just don't have the maturity and experience in life to garner respect. Of course no kid is going to believe this, but it doesn't change reality.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:02 pm 
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Incognito wrote:
And yes i have seen Presto Printo performed which bored the audience.


Oh really? Well considering that you must use some sleight of hand for Presto Printo, I guess you further proved my point. But again I think you are full of crap, this effect is strong enough to hold its own and interesting enough at its core. Anyone who is able to do it proficiently is not going to bore anyone. I do not believe you seen anyone do this effect nor was anyone bored by it, you are fabricating experiences now for the sake of arguing.

Incognito wrote:
I've used heaps of gimmicks in my time as a professional...


Your time as a professional? From your pic you look about 12-14 years old tops, you were never a professional. Being a professional consists of earning a living solely through magic, and supporting yourself with it entirely. Not living at home with your mom and dad and doing occasional gigs for family and friends. I thought I was a professional too at age 10 or so, until I actually became one at age 16 and looked back and laughed at myself back then.


Last edited by sirbrad on Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:03 pm 
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sirbrad wrote:
Incognito wrote:
sirbrad wrote:
That was an isolated incident in which my spectator wanted to examine 2 effects that were indeed examinable. I then did an effect that wasn't examinable, but asked if he would like to see that too, or get on with the rest of the show. This was over 20 years ago but I always remember it. However I have improved obviously since then, and learned how to take examinability completely out of the equation.

Most "kids/newcomers" simply do an effect without any real patter or engaging scripts, which then of course is going to make audiences assume it is a "puzzle" they are being challeneged to figure out. Proof of this can be found on youtube. Kids want amazing effects that can be examined, yet require little skill. It doesn't work like that. Gimmicks seem to be shunned by amateur armchair-hobbyists, not working professionals. It doesn't matter if you do not want to use gimmicks, but what the reason is?

That question says a lot of about you as an alleged performer. An effect such as healed and sealed requires some set up, and may even require multiple gimmicks, depending on how you do it. However the impact of this effect is well worth it. I also highly doubt you seen someone bored to tears watching Presto Printo specifically. Maybe if you saw some 14-year old doing it in the mirror for the first time.


You did indeed say " Sometimes I may hand out 2 things that can be examined, and usually that is enough. "

Must have been a slip.

Well we are not specifically talking about kids, i'm not anyway. But then again, i have seen younger people do magic and the audience loves them more than the person who has been doing it for decades. In fact, i saw a young guy not so long ago who did just that, he did a card trick on stage that absolutely slayed the audience more than the other professionals who had been doing magic longer than he had been alive.
His presentation was brilliant, and that is what matters.

And yes i have seen Presto Printo performed which bored the audience. And no this person was not 14 either, you have this thing with equating bad magic with age, she was older. Any person doing a trick, no matter how long they have performed, how technically brilliant they are can do some absolute tripe.

My point is that gimmicks or not, you can do magic brilliantly and baffle and entertain the audience. To suggest that somebody who uses gimmicks exclusively, or even occasionally, that makes them a better performer or magician by default is nonsense, pure nonsense. Nor the other way around.
I still don't see what the problem is, if somebody feels better being able to do the effects without gimmicks, then good for them ! Vice versa.

Healed and Sealed Soda is a great trick, i love seeing it. If it is being performed i am looking at the audience because i know if it is done right, they are going to go nuts. But that does not mean my non-gimmicked effects are any less impressive, if they were, i would not have had the success that i have had.

I do not equate gimmicks with no skill, not at all. I've used heaps of gimmicks in my time as a professional but i feel better not using them and there have been plenty of times i have been very glad about that. Doesn't make me better or worse than anybody else.

So, once again, gimmicks are good if you want to use them, no gimmicks is good if you dont want to use them, PRESENTATION matters. If you are happy about your magic then it will show in your presentation.




No slip, I said "sometimes" and "may" which does not say how often and when. At the time I was a lot younger, and trying to "overprove" what did not need overproving. Age is very conducent to be able to perform quality magic, as one must be well versed with their persona, communication, and life skills overall. No one under age 21 minimum is going to have that kind of experience and education.

You are speaking from a 14-year old's, or younger; point of view and they are never wrong at that age. The difference is that I have was where you were out long ago, but you were never where I am at now. Adults are taken seriously, most kids are not. Like I said, they just don't have the maturity and experience in life to garner respect. Of course no kid is going to believe this, but it doesn't change reality.


I'm taken very seriously to whoever I perform too. I keep getting booked, and I'm only 14.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:34 pm 
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sirbrad wrote:
Incognito wrote:
And yes i have seen Presto Printo performed which bored the audience.


Oh really? Well considering that you must use some sleight of hand for Presto Printo, I guess you further proved my point. But again I think you are full of crap, this effect is strong enough to hold its own and interesting enough at its core. Anyone who is able to do it proficiently is not going to bore anyone. I do not believe you seen anyone do this effect nor was anyone bored by it, you are fabricating experiences now for the sake of arguing.

Incognito wrote:
I've used heaps of gimmicks in my time as a professional...


Your time as a professional? From your pic you look about 12-14 years old tops, you were never a professional. Being a professional consists of earning a living solely through magic, and supporting yourself with it entirely. Not living at home with your mom and dad and doing occasional gigs for family and friends. I thought I was a professional too at age 10 or so, until I actually became one at age 16 and looked back and laughed at myself back then.




Sirbrad:

I don't want this to turn into a 'my thing is bigger than your thing' because i don't play that game, you can if you like. If you want to throw personal insults, that's your choice, i will take the high road and stick to discussing the areas and ideas of magic which i believe we all love. You are actually nice to converse with aside from your silly mocking. Stick to your points, you have some interesting ones and it's a shame that you bring yourself down.

I don't sit here and pretend i know the in's and out's of your life because i don't want to act like that.

I used to be like that.
Thinking, because of my success, that i was better than everybody but guess what, I have discovered that one thing i don't want to do is under estimate people because everybody has something to share and give. I used to sit around and argue thinking i knew it all. I admit when somebody younger than me, older than me, has less experience than me makes a good point, creates a good effect (or even something that has potential)

Check out the DVD section on this site and tell me you have nothing to learn from the people younger than you. Younger than me.

I have seen many magic dealers do some absolutely terrible demonstrations, Presto Printo was one. "Look at the funny cards" can be the impression one gets from it. I thought it was a stupid effect when i first saw it but i have seen it since with a great presentation and i actually cared. The effect can be a brilliant one.
I am sure you do it much better than that, doesn't mean everybody else can. Good tricks can suck badly and i have seen it time and time again. No trick 'carries its own' i have no idea where you get that from. If that was the case anybody who can move their hands in the right way doing that effect would entrance everybody, which is complete nonsense.
How many fantastic stage illusions have you seen that just die completely on stage ?

Tricks don't 'hold their own', that's an absurd thing to say.

Surely you don't actually believe that.
If people don't like you, they aren't going to care about your little trick.

And get this into your brain, gimmicks are good for those that choose to use them, that has been my point all along.
People who don't want to use gimmicks good for them, if they do, wonderful. You do not have to use gimmicks in order to dazzle and be successful and you don't have to use sleight of hand exclusively to be a great magician either.

And just to set the record straight, i am 27. You don't know squat about my career in magic so your ramblings make you look silly.

Let's try and keep the assumptions and insults out of it because i am actually enjoying this conversation otherwise.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:44 am 
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Demonstrations from "magic dealers" are irrelevant, as they are intended for "magicians" not laymen. Too many magicians today are looking to be entertained by magic demos as opposed to learning the material. Also Presto Printo was ONE example of a thousand. The effect can be done with very little skill, or with a lot of skill. I simply said the "core effect" is not something that is boring, and it does stand on its own. I did not insinuate it could be "done on its own."

So-called self-working tricks can be transformed into magic masterpieces, and I have seen that as I already stated. Although no effect is actually fully self-working, it just means no sleights required, or very easy ones.

Maloney123, you keep getting booked? By who? Established businesses? Restaurants? Are you reporting your earnings to the IRS? I doubt it. Cash under the table from family and friends? Perhaps.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:24 am 
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More assumptions, can't help yourself can you sirbrad ?

Some young magicians can make lots of money.
It's not unheard of for a young person to be a performer and get paid and be in demand.


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