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 Post subject: Are You Ready? ...For NEW Ideas?!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Criss Angel - and his 'consultants' have run out of ideas.
With the exception of the Zig-Zag girl done without a box, he's done nothing new thus far this season.

Let's review:

- Barrel drop: Done it.
- Car vanish: Done it.
- Appearing girl: Done it ad nauseum.
- Walked thru window/door: Done it.
- Walking on water: Done it.
- Vanished prior to being hit by moving vehicle only to be found in vehicle: Done it. Truck this season; rollercoaster on a previous seaon.
- Football levitation while in play: Done it. Football this season; Frisbee on a previous season. Lightbulb, too. Same thing.
- Caught himself on fire only to appear elsewhere: Done it. (And last night's was very poorly done. He shouldn't have done it out in the open where it was obvious.)
- Self-levitations: Done it ad nauseum.

I want to like Criss Angel. I love magic and want it on television as much as possible. But who can continue to be entertained by the exact same illusions performed over and over again?! ...And what's worse, he seems to be getting more and more sloppy with his presentations. If you do the same tricks a bazillion times, shouldn't you get better?!!!

He needs to drop out of the limelight for a while. Do the Cirque thing. Grow that mountain man beard a little longer. Get some more narcissistic tattoos, (have you noticed his new one that's more of a branding than a tattooing?! Can he be anymore narcissistic?!). But get off my television until you can give us something fresh or at least something performed well.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Are You Ready? ...For NEW Ideas?!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:38 pm 
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RadioRob wrote:
I want to like Criss Angel.


That's the difference between you and I Rob.
I don't want to like Criss, he is who he is - and who he is, is a jerk. If magic is on TV, we need someone respectable to represent us.


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 Post subject: Re: Are You Ready? ...For NEW Ideas?!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:53 pm 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
RadioRob wrote:
I want to like Criss Angel.


That's the difference between you and I Rob.
I don't want to like Criss, he is who he is - and who he is, is a jerk. If magic is on TV, we need someone respectable to represent us.


I agree, is this really what we want people to think is normal magic.


Juliegel


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:20 pm 
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Think about the following... how many different illusions/ tricks/ stunts has he already done? Much more than most other magicians, right? I would even go so far to say more than any other magician, but of course I can't know that for sure. And I don't think that he has much free time anymore to learn and practice completely new stuff. So he has to repeat things he has already done and give them a new look.
Also, try to watch the show with the eyes of a layman from the general audience. (I'm in the "not quite a layman anymore, but not yet a real magician"-phase.) After he walked on a swimming pool, I wanted to see him walk on a lake. I'm absolutely entertained when I see levitations, no matter how often it already has been done. And there are many people out there who want to see those illusions again and again, I mean in a stage show a magician does the same illusions in every show, and many people go and watch it more than once. But I agree with some of the other points you posted, when it's repeated it should be better and/or bigger than the last time... which was the case with the walking on water, but not with things like the football levitation. And I think the time has come where he should think about not doing a 5th season and instead concentrating on Believe. Though I know that I will miss Mindfreak when the time has come, I have a feeling that he will do exactly that, giving up the tv show to be able to give 100% on the live show. I still love Mindfreak, but I understand what you guys mean. Again, I'd just suggest to try and watch it with "layman's eyes" from time to time if you don't understand why so many people still love it... I'm talking with Loyals everyday for example, and it seems like nobody cares if they see an illusion that he has already done before, as long as it still freaks their minds. :wink:

P.S.: Juliegel, you forget that people- except magicians- don't watch Mindfreak to see "normal magic". Most of them watch it to see the big things a usual magician can't do, because they don't have the money and the team required. As they don't admire Copperfield because of the card tricks he can do, but because of illusions like walking through the Great Wall of China or making the Statue of Liberty disappear.
When the show started many people watched it to see things they have never seen before, but now things have changed. On the one hand people lose interest because of the repeated stuff, on the other hand there are the fans who don't care what he does, as long as he's the one who does it. However, the show still has high ratings, if magicians like it or not, because it's adressed to entertain laymen and not magicians.

Edit: Don't call me noob, I already know what FTW means! :P :lol:
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Last edited by LoyalAnanya on Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:29 pm 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:44 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
Think about the following... how many different illusions/ tricks/ stunts has he already done? Much more than most other magicians, right?

Not even close. Stage magicians update their material on a regular basis to keep the shows interesting. Lance Burton, Kevin James, Penn and Teller, the Pendragons, etc. have all done far more than Angel. Let's not forget the publicity stunt magicians, escape artists, and alike that have done thousands of large scale illusions vs Angel's 30or so.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
And I don't think that he has much free time anymore to learn and practice completely new stuff. So he has to repeat things he has already done and give them a new look.

That's not exactly a defense Ananya. "He doesn't have time to practice" is simply a lack of professionalism on his part. He needs to spend less time dating celebrities and partying and more time practicing.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
After he walked on a swimming pool, I wanted to see him walk on a lake.

I didn't. I already knew how he did the swimming pool walk, and I didn't really care about seeing him walk on a lake.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
And there are many people out there who want to see those illusions again and again, I mean in a stage show a magician does the same illusions in every show, and many people go and watch it more than once.

Correction, people DON'T want to see the same effects over and over - that's why professional magicians update their material so often.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
Again, I'd just suggest to try and watch it with "layman's eyes" from time to time if you don't understand why so many people still love it... I'm talking with Loyals everyday for example, and it seems like nobody cares if they see an illusion that he has already done before, as long as it still freaks their minds. :wink:

The "Loyals" are blindly so. Some of them eek over here on occasion and they are typically shocked and dismayed that we would suggest that Angel uses camera tricks - even though it can be proven by simply watching the show. From my experience, the Loyals are are less laymen and more worshippers.

You'd be surprised how many normal people are sick and tired of Angel.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
P.S.: Juliegel, you forget that people- except magicians- don't watch Mindfreak to see "normal magic". Most of them watch it to see the big things a usual magician can't do, because they don't have the money and the team required.

Or the far more important TV show to air the digitally altered footage. FYI, there are many magicians that CAN and DO perform comprable effects without massive crews, stooges, and camera tricks - it just takes too much skill for Criss' taste.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
As they don't admire Copperfield because of the card tricks he can do, but because of illusions like walking through the Great Wall of China or making the Statue of Liberty disappear.

Really? Copperfield popularized the Card through Window effect as well as Torn and Restored - two of the most popular effects to date. Though the statue of liberty vanish is his most popular effect, he's known for alot more.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
However, the show still has high ratings, if magicians like it or not, because it's adressed to entertain laymen and not magicians.

The show isn't doing as well as people seem to think and Criss' name doesn't sell anymore. It's largely because 1)He's repeatign stuff 2)people are figuring out that he uses stooges and 3)people are figuring out that he uses camera tricks.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'd like to make a quick note since something obvious just occurred to me :roll:

I believe when Rob said, "I want to like Criss".
He meant, "I want to like the spokesman of our industry - who happens to be Criss."
I'd have to agree with that, though it's a shame that Criss technically is our spokesman.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:21 am 
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dbaker_creator, I think you didn't really understand me on some points. I'm just replying to clarify.

dbaker_creator wrote:
Let's not forget the publicity stunt magicians, escape artists, and alike that have done thousands of large scale illusions vs Angel's 30or so.


Come on, that's just not true, he has done hundreds of different things. Even if you only counted the big illusions, you can't be serious by saying "30 or so"... average less than 1 trick in every 3rd episode or what? :lol:
And I'm counting every effect he's ever done, stunts, illusions, small tricks and whatever, not only on the Mindfreak series but also in his former live show and his 2 tv specials.


dbaker_creator wrote:
LoyalAnanya wrote:
And I don't think that he has much free time anymore to learn and practice completely new stuff. So he has to repeat things he has already done and give them a new look.

That's not exactly a defense Ananya. "He doesn't have time to practice" is simply a lack of professionalism on his part. He needs to spend less time dating celebrities and partying and more time practicing.


I didn't mean it as a defense, it's just a fact. And who are you to judge about the way he spends the little free time he has? I would never do something like this, it's his life not ours. You think it's a lack of professionalism not to work 24/7? He has the Mindfreak series, the upcoming live show, he will participate in the film adaptation of "Mandrake the magician" and you don't even grant him an evening in a club after work. Oh well...


dbaker_creator wrote:
I didn't. I already knew how he did the swimming pool walk, and I didn't really care about seeing him walk on a lake.


And that's exactly what I wanted to point out: my impression in this moment is that you are a magician trying to speak for the layman, and that's just an illusion. You know how he walked on water and didn't want to see it again, fine. But that's because you are a magician! Somebody who's not into magic and doesn't know how he did it has a total different experience in this case. Let me give you an example of a "typical layman's thoughts", I can do that because I know many people who think like this and I'm into magic just for a short time now:
Maybe somebody has seen a magician walk on an aquarium on stage before. Of course he's impressed, but after a while he thinks "well on stage everything is possible". Then he has seen Criss walking on the swimming pool and was blown away... and if he wants to try to figure out how he did it, he thinks "hmm... he must have control about that environment, this and that could be how he did it." Than they see him doing it on the lake and think "oh what I thought of can't work here, it must be a completely different method...this is a natural environment, nothing above him, nothing under him, wow!"
That was what I meant when I agreed with RadioRob that an illusion that is repeated should be bigger and better, and harder to figure out. And that's exactly what he did here.


dbaker_creator wrote:
Correction, people DON'T want to see the same effects over and over -


I never claimed that, read my post again. All I said was that most of them are interested to see it more than once- which means at least 2 times, but not over and over.


I'm not going to argue with you about what you said about the Loyals- that's your impression and your opinion and you'r entitled to it. I just say that I know it better because I am one myself and I know many others personally. You probably only know about those who write childish posts under youtube videos and online tabloids. I know that they make the Loyals look bad, but I guarantee you not all of us are like this. We all have different personal reasons to love Criss Angel, and some are more dedicative than others. On the one hand I don't care anymore about all the "Loyal bashing" but on the other hand I hate it when people make generalizations, so I had to give my 2 cents here.


Well for the rest what you said, we have total different opinions about some things and we would only go in circles... Just one last thing for the Copperfield issue, ask random people on the streets what they think is more impressive, the vanish of the Statue of Liberty or the Torn and Restored... Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to decry anything. But there's a reason why he's popular for that big effect, don't you agree? People love those big illusions, and that's what they remember for the rest of their lives. And I only mentioned that in first line to explain that "the ordinary non-magician who watches Mindfreak" watches it to see big stuff like that, the illusions and the crazy stunts. It's entertainment. I don't know about viewer levels and so on because I don't even live in America and always have to wait until the next episode finds its way to youtube. All I heard was that about 10 million people watched the building implosion escape, on tv and on the live webcast, and that Mindfreak is the series that has the highest viewer levels on A&E.


Edit:

dbaker_creator wrote:
I believe when Rob said, "I want to like Criss".
He meant, "I want to like the spokesman of our industry - who happens to be Criss."
I'd have to agree with that, though it's a shame that Criss technically is our spokesman.


Wait, you really mean what you say, right? You see Criss as your spokesman? Criss never wanted to be seen as a typical or even traditional magician- I mean that's even the main reason why he called himself the Mindfreak. It's also the main reason for most of his fans why they like him more than other magicians. It's a question of taste and there's no accounting for taste, but what I mean is that he's not supposed to be a role model or a spokesman for magicians in general. Though I see where you're coming from, of course there are people who see him exactly like that. But you have to deal with that and nobody can please everybody.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:01 am 
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LoyalAnanya

none so blind as those who will not see.. I feel sorry for you if Criss is what you consider a top notch magician. He is a hack and will always be. In my not so humble opinion he is an embarassement to the art...

:roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:51 am 
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dbaker_creator wrote:
LoyalAnanya wrote:
Think about the following... how many different illusions/ tricks/ stunts has he already done? Much more than most other magicians, right?

Not even close. Stage magicians update their material on a regular basis to keep the shows interesting. Lance Burton, Kevin James, Penn and Teller, the Pendragons, etc. have all done far more than Angel. Let's not forget the publicity stunt magicians, escape artists, and alike that have done thousands of large scale illusions vs Angel's 30or so.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
And I don't think that he has much free time anymore to learn and practice completely new stuff. So he has to repeat things he has already done and give them a new look.

That's not exactly a defense Ananya. "He doesn't have time to practice" is simply a lack of professionalism on his part. He needs to spend less time dating celebrities and partying and more time practicing.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
After he walked on a swimming pool, I wanted to see him walk on a lake.

I didn't. I already knew how he did the swimming pool walk, and I didn't really care about seeing him walk on a lake.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
And there are many people out there who want to see those illusions again and again, I mean in a stage show a magician does the same illusions in every show, and many people go and watch it more than once.

Correction, people DON'T want to see the same effects over and over - that's why professional magicians update their material so often.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
Again, I'd just suggest to try and watch it with "layman's eyes" from time to time if you don't understand why so many people still love it... I'm talking with Loyals everyday for example, and it seems like nobody cares if they see an illusion that he has already done before, as long as it still freaks their minds. :wink:

The "Loyals" are blindly so. Some of them eek over here on occasion and they are typically shocked and dismayed that we would suggest that Angel uses camera tricks - even though it can be proven by simply watching the show. From my experience, the Loyals are are less laymen and more worshippers.

You'd be surprised how many normal people are sick and tired of Angel.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
P.S.: Juliegel, you forget that people- except magicians- don't watch Mindfreak to see "normal magic". Most of them watch it to see the big things a usual magician can't do, because they don't have the money and the team required.

Or the far more important TV show to air the digitally altered footage. FYI, there are many magicians that CAN and DO perform comprable effects without massive crews, stooges, and camera tricks - it just takes too much skill for Criss' taste.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
As they don't admire Copperfield because of the card tricks he can do, but because of illusions like walking through the Great Wall of China or making the Statue of Liberty disappear.

Really? Copperfield popularized the Card through Window effect as well as Torn and Restored - two of the most popular effects to date. Though the statue of liberty vanish is his most popular effect, he's known for alot more.

LoyalAnanya wrote:
However, the show still has high ratings, if magicians like it or not, because it's adressed to entertain laymen and not magicians.

The show isn't doing as well as people seem to think and Criss' name doesn't sell anymore. It's largely because 1)He's repeatign stuff 2)people are figuring out that he uses stooges and 3)people are figuring out that he uses camera tricks.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'd like to make a quick note since something obvious just occurred to me :roll:

I believe when Rob said, "I want to like Criss".
He meant, "I want to like the spokesman of our industry - who happens to be Criss."
I'd have to agree with that, though it's a shame that Criss technically is our spokesman.


Very well said. All of it.

Regarding LoyalAnanya's Copperfield comment, let me just add the following: I have ALL of David Copperfield's television shows on DVD, (recorded straight from t.v. to VHS and from VHS tape to DVD, so the quality isn't great on the older ones). Know what his very first performance was on his very first television show, (which was actually called, "The Magic of ABC featuring David Copperfield" and not yet, "The Magic of David Copperfield")?! It was card manipulations! Appearances, fanning...all kinds of stuff. That got the audience's attention and skyrocketed his career. So people DO like him for his card tricks. I personally like it when he does a bill switch or a ring flight or a floating rose or vanishes something at his fingertips. ...Stuff I now do I loved seeing him do when I was a kid even more than the big stage stuff.

And dbaker_creator; you're correct about my comment. I don't want to necessarily like Criss Angel for who Criss Angel is. I want to like him because he's, (unfortunately), representing the working magic community. And some of his practices are actually detrimental to our art and the workers out there performing that art. That's not cool.

Whenever magic is on television or in the spotlight of pop culture, it should amaze and delight and entertain and foster the desire to see more of it, more often, in those who have witnessed it. Copperfield shows, (I've seen him live, too), amaze, entertain and delight. They spark a love and appreciation for magic and cause the spectator to want to see more. What Copperfield performances DON'T do is send a bunch of teens to the local magic shop whose only goal is to drop $20, learn what they saw on television, perform it for their friends, (poorly, in most cases), and then REVEAL the method both to their friends and to crowds where they see other WORKING magicians performing a similar illusion. This damages the magic community on many different levels and Criss Angel has unfortunately created just that kind of fan with his 'loyal' viewers.

Furthermore, when an illusion is repeated and/or performed poorly, you run the risk of exposure. If you love the art of magic, you should develop and/or perform tricks with the protection of its secrets/methods as one of your primary goals. It's a responsibility of being part of the performing magic community. Criss has shrugged off that responsibility in order to pump out more shows and make more money and his 'loyal' buys it hook, line and sinker; which only perpetuates more repetition and poor performances that risk exposure.

So, as he is a representative of the art of magic with a lot of media exposure at his disposal, I want to like him. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to see him redeem himself and live up to the standards set by those who have preceeded him. But he started on a slippery slope early on and it seems that he's embraced himself more than the art he's using, (poorly in some cases), to rocket himself to stardom. I want to like him; but recently, he's failed to give me anything to hold onto.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:06 am 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
Criss never wanted to be seen as a typical or even traditional magician- I mean that's even the main reason why he called himself the Mindfreak. It's also the main reason for most of his fans why they like him more than other magicians. It's a question of taste and there's no accounting for taste, but what I mean is that he's not supposed to be a role model or a spokesman for magicians in general.


He's performing magic. I don't care if he calls himself a magician or not, (on my business cards, I'm not listed as a magician or an illusionist - I came up with my own title/word to describe what I do); he's using the art of illusion to make his living. That puts on him a responsibility to act accordingly. When I perform some illusions, I've had many people say, "you're freaking me out" or, "that's freaky" and on mentalism stuff, "get out of my head". All can be considered a "mind-freak." His title, while certainly clever; is still based on magician principals and natural, common reactions to magic.

People who find out I'm a magician will often immediately ask if I know who Criss Angel is or if I can do some of the stuff he does. These are non-magicians. You know what that means? That means that the general viewing public considers him a magician. Not something more or less; but a magician.

Regardless of what he CLAIMS he did or didn't want to be, he performed classic magic as a kid and always aspired to be a magician. To say now that he never wanted that is to deceive his fans so that they will do just what you've done: defend him when he's done something indefensible.

Performing magic on national televison makes one a magician/illusionist. Doesn't matter what you call yourself. The general public (correctly) recognizes you as a magician; which means that he is - willingly or not - a spokesperson and representative of the art.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:19 pm 
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Guys, I don't get it why some of you behave the way they do...

1. Some turn the words around in my mouth (I hope that makes sense, that's what we say in german but I don't know if it's translated like this), for example all I did was trying to show you that there's more than one side to everything, and when I talked about the big illusions, that's what my experience with people in my environment is. I never claimed that every non-magician thinks like that, but you make it sound as if I said exactly that.

2. Some others don't even listen to my arguments just because I say anything positive about Criss Angel. We're all entitled to our opinions, I respect yours and I would expect that you respect mine as well. And the worst is something like this:

Pauldela wrote:
Ana do me a favor and GTFO. Criss is a Douch bag at the end of the day.

kthxbai


I even get bashed for my personal opinion, do you really think that's the correct way to behave? :roll: I'm getting really tired of it. But no, I won't do you that favor! Criss is the one who got me into magic and I have the same right as everybody else to state my opinion. You can state that you disagree without bashing me our decrying my opinion!!! :x


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:31 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:

I have the same right as everybody else to state my opinion. You can state that you disagree without bashing me our decrying my opinion!!! :x


well when people feel strongly about something and have very opposite opinions they are naturally going to point it out but I agree it's rude to tell you to just get lost...

:(


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:51 pm 
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LoyalAnanya wrote:
After he walked on a swimming pool, I wanted to see him walk on a lake.


Can I ask why? Whether you are a laymen or not, why is it fun to watch the exact same illusion done again yet passed off as something new?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:52 pm 
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KingMilo wrote:
LoyalAnanya wrote:
After he walked on a swimming pool, I wanted to see him walk on a lake.


Can I ask why? Whether you are a laymen or not, why is it fun to watch the exact same illusion done again yet passed off as something new?


Good question, for me there are several reasons- but the main reason is that I just love the beauty of this illusion. I can't count how often I have watched the video where he walks on the swimming pool, and on the lake it looks even more beautiful to me. The scene where he stands there and you see how large that lake is, and the motor boats drive in circles around him... I just love it! It inspires me, I do graphic art and write poems for example and this is one of the illusions that have an influence on my art. Another reason I already stated earlyer, from the layman's point of view it's more impressive because it gives the impression that he had no control about the environment and that whatever "gimmick" he used can't be in the water... while when he walked on the pool, everybody was thinking it must be something in the water. This result is part of the illusion and it obviously works for many people. But like I said, for me the main reason is that I connect with the beauty of it, and that it raises emotions inside of me which for me is what's most important in my life.
Edit: The same with levitations, I can't get enough of them because it looks so beautiful and more magical than anything else to me.


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