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 Post subject: Thought I had about Criss Angel...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:06 am 
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So I was thinking, Criss Angel says "I don't use any camera editing" or whatever, and people get mad when he actually does. Now my thought is that, when you do a sponge ball routine, you might say "I'm going to put this one in this hand" and then you actually don't. or when doing a card trick you might say I'm not going to do any switches and then you actually do. So why is this any different. Magic involves lying, but making it look like you're not lying.

Just a thought I had about Criss Angel and about magic.
what do you guys think?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:08 am 
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To be a magician - you have to be a good liar. But there is also a line drawn about how far you can go.

For instance - you can perform mental magic; however claiming that you actually have psychic powers is a bit extreme.

Chris happily attacks and attempts to expose "so-called" charlatans that claim mental powers and yet has no problem telling the TV audience that "What you see is what you get." or "I will never perform anything on my show that I cannot do live."

We all know this is hogwash since he cannot replicate most any of his TV effects in his Cirque show...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:16 am 
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DerZauberer wrote:
To be a magician - you have to be a good liar. But there is also a line drawn about how far you can go.

For instance - you can perform mental magic; however claiming that you actually have psychic powers is a bit extreme.
I don't think so, in fact that is very common. It's all part of the presentation.
Chris happily attacks and attempts to expose "so-called" charlatans that claim mental powers and yet has no problem telling the TV audience that "What you see is what you get." or "I will never perform anything on my show that I cannot do live."
What Criss does here is just hypocritical, and I think this is where the line is drawn
We all know this is hogwash since he cannot replicate most any of his TV effects in his Cirque show...

Wouldn't go that far, but yes there are some things he can't replicate, obviously...

Thanks for your opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:15 pm 
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It's not part of the presentation when mentalists actually try to convince their audiences that they are psychics. That is nothing more than being a charlatan, and a scumbag. There is a line between ethical, and unethical. Once you try to convince people that you're a psychic, then you've crossed that line.

As for Criss Angel, he has also crossed that line. The way he uses camera tricks is simply unethical. Magicians may lie; however, we lie in a fashion that people know it's a lie. People know we aren't doing real magic. They simply suspend their disbelief during the show. Logically, they know we can't make people levitate. But Criss takes it further, in order to make his following believe he has supernatural powers. That is unethical, and makes him a scumbag (well, is part of the reason for).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:44 pm 
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Here we go again, another inexperienced magician comes in, thinks he's got two cents that have not ever been presented here, states his opinion, gets told why he is wrong, gets educated on the real opinions of magicians, he retaliates at some point... this is all following a cycle. For once, after this post, I will stay completely away from this and simply observe.
By the way, I AM a mentalist and never claim to have psychic powers as it is simply unethical to do so. Once you start claiming such things people may ask you for your help which you cannot give because you know you do not have those powers. It's like a cold reader charging for their readings, its unethical to charge people for a service that gives them no real answers, and a service which you cannot provide. Its a whole big ugly thing once a mentalist that is prominent claims to have psychic powers. That is why I at least stay away from doing so.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:46 pm 
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I'm one of the biggest Criss Angel haters here but the person makes a fair point. Every magician, even Copperfield, has used a camera tricks. Why is it ok for some to use camera tricks but not Criss Angel?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:18 pm 
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Because Criss does it constantly, not one shows goes by without half his tricks being edited, he tries to make other magicians look bad, he makes your average layman that can stand watching his show think all magicians can make 100 spectators pick an ace of spades from a spectators borrowed forcing deck full of ace of hearts in a row, now i'm slightly exaggerating here, but what Criss is basically doing, is using camera tricks/stooges to perform tricks not even he is capable of in a show or real life, and did I mention his sleight of hand stinks? his sleight of camera is top notch though.

+ look at how many rings he wears in the most recent season... I think his jewelry makes him feel better about himself since he knows he is a fraud...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:37 pm 
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KingMilo wrote:
I'm one of the biggest Criss Angel haters here but the person makes a fair point. Every magician, even Copperfield, has used a camera tricks. Why is it ok for some to use camera tricks but not Criss Angel?

That's a pretty broad statement; not to mention completely false.

Copperfield may have used camera trickery for some of his TV effects, as well as stooges, however his Stage show stands on its own and Copperfield has never claimed, "what you see is what you get". Also Crissy uses camera tricks and edits to hide his lack of talent. No will contest Copperfield’s talent or skill level in that regard.

Crissy also uses lies, deception, camera edits and stooges to create magic tricks on TV that you would never be able to replicate in a real world live venue. Hence his Cirque shows tanking for lack of personality and magic tricks.

Crissy is truly in a class all by himself. Nowhere in the history of magic have I ever come across such a no talent hack.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:49 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
KingMilo wrote:
I'm one of the biggest Criss Angel haters here but the person makes a fair point. Every magician, even Copperfield, has used a camera tricks. Why is it ok for some to use camera tricks but not Criss Angel?

That's a pretty broad statement; not to mention completely false.

Copperfield may have used camera trickery for some of his TV effects, as well as stooges, however his Stage show stands on its own and Copperfield has never claimed, "what you see is what you get". Also Crissy uses camera tricks and edits to hide his lack of talent. No will contest Copperfield’s talent or skill level in that regard.

Crissy also uses lies, deception, camera edits and stooges to create magic tricks on TV that you would never be able to replicate in a real world live venue. Hence his Cirque shows tanking for lack of personality and magic tricks.

Crissy is truly in a class all by himself. Nowhere in the history of magic have I ever come across such a no talent hack.


Ok yes saying every magician was wrong. But the top magicians that have had their own specials have all used camera tricks and stooges. David Copperfield, David Blaine, Lance Burton, Cyril and Penn & Teller have all used camera tricks.

Criss Angel saying "what you see is what you get" is no different than a magician calling a gimmicked object ordinary. They are both lies.

I hate Criss Angel because he is an egotistical creep and his stuff is well pretty bad. But you shouldn't really be hating him because of the use of camera tricks alone. Really who decides how much is acceptable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:48 am 
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A magician with a strong sense of morals, ethics and respect for the art decides where the line is crossed.

All the "other" magicians you speak of have proved their mettle of skill, talent and magical knowledge. I suspect a sprinkling of camera trickery in their television specials, but that is purely speculation and guessing since you know there is no hard proof.

Since I have personally spoken with some of Criss Angel's magic advisors and members of Mindfreak’s production crew, I can say plainly without a doubt that he relies heavily on camera edits and stooges more often than is reasonable in order to give the "illusion" of talent.

Saying "They are both lies" is a huge exaggeration when you compare the two. Like I said earlier, to be magician, you must be a good liar. However Criss crossed that line and its leagues behind him.

By the Way - I don't Hate Criss Angel. Hate is pretty strong. I dislike him for disrespecting magicians and our art and for his television show that has taken us backwards.
I am attending an IBM meeting Saturday where one of Criss Angel’s Season 4 Magic Advisors is speaking. He is also an AMA member and an acquaintance of mine. I am sure he will have some illuminating stories to share.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Ok lets go with your logic here and say camera tricks are just fine.... yes!!!! That means I am now talented enough to get on tv and become a millionaire and famous!!! I mean who can't edit videos and look amazing! Who cares about live performance? I mean the whole point of magic on tv is for the camera to be the spectator at home's eye but edited if we can pause their eyeball then lets do it!! Who really cares if we can't actually do it live?

Oh wait, the spectator does because they actually want to see us fool them and create an impossible illusion right in front of them.... :cry: oh well, so much for my tv show....

The whole point of not using camera tricks is a trust you build between you and your television audience. They know anyone can use camera tricks and look amazing, Neo is the proof of that, who is btw far more amazing than Angel.

But they trust magicians are not using camera tricks and are simply performing near a camera, but NOT USING IT AS A GIMMICK. Its not like in real life in person live you can "pause" or "cut" or "point" a person's view. The closest you can possibly get to that is misdirection which magicians make use of a lot, but thats not anywhere close to being the same thing at all.

Angel RELIES on camera tricks. ANY OTHER MAGICIAN that has been on tv that has used camera tricks probably used them so few times you could count them on one hand I would bet. Angel uses them sometimes multiple times in a single episode occasionally. He is violating trust between a television magic audience and magicians, and in the process making magic look stupid on tv because everyone assumes its ALL just camera trickery.

Then he also swears he is not using camera trickery like magicians on tv have done before, but you know what? Those magicians almost always were actually truly NOT using camera tricks!!! Its crazy I know... I watched an oil and water card routine done like a million times at work on tv and the guy says that there is no camera trickery to build up the presentation, and guess what? There is no camera trickery! Angel on the other hand would do a camera trick after saying there is no camera trickery. So it makes it even worse.

Finally when magicians do use camera tricks, its not ok. It doesn't matter if its Burton or Angel. But it is MUCH worse to use them constantly and multiple times than to just have one or two during all of your televised performances. Anyway still its just as bad for anyone to use them.

No one has said "Angel sucks because he uses camera tricks!" and then said "Copperfield is awesome, did you see that camera trick he did?!" That would be really hypocritical, stupid, and idiotic, and you will not find a post like that by anyone, I promise you. I would be very surprised if you found that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:15 pm 
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thecooltonto wrote:
They know anyone can use camera tricks and look amazing, Neo is the proof of that, who is btw far more amazing than Angel.



how could you... I thought what Neo does was real...

:lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:53 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
A magician with a strong sense of morals, ethics and respect for the art decides where the line is crossed.


I really don't see how lying one way is ok and lying another is bad.

DerZauberer wrote:
All the "other" magicians you speak of have proved their mettle of skill, talent and magical knowledge. I suspect a sprinkling of camera trickery in their television specials, but that is purely speculation and guessing since you know there is no hard proof.


Come on now. You've been in the business long enough to know better. Copperfield alone has had a string of camera tricks and television manipulations.

Just to name a couple. He cgi's the ghosts in his Barclay house illusion and the explosion of the house that blows him back is filmed separately but edited to look as if it occured in front of the audience. His filmed Thirteen illusion is filmed differently than it is performed live. And that is just to name a few.

So again I don't see why some get a pass and others don't. Trickery is trickery and I don't see why there is good and bad trickery.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:42 pm 
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KingMilo wrote:
DerZauberer wrote:
A magician with a strong sense of morals, ethics and respect for the art decides where the line is crossed.


I really don't see how lying one way is ok and lying another is bad.

DerZauberer wrote:
All the "other" magicians you speak of have proved their mettle of skill, talent and magical knowledge. I suspect a sprinkling of camera trickery in their television specials, but that is purely speculation and guessing since you know there is no hard proof.


Come on now. You've been in the business long enough to know better. Copperfield alone has had a string of camera tricks and television manipulations.

Just to name a couple. He cgi's the ghosts in his Barclay house illusion and the explosion of the house that blows him back is filmed separately but edited to look as if it occured in front of the audience. His filmed Thirteen illusion is filmed differently than it is performed live. And that is just to name a few.

So again I don't see why some get a pass and others don't. Trickery is trickery and I don't see why there is good and bad trickery.

I have said what needs to be said. thecooltonto added quite more which I agree with. I suppose you don't have enough working experience to know the difference yet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:27 pm 
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This idea that there is trust between the spectator and the magician is ridiculous. There is no trust. Everyone knows the magician is lying to them they just aren't sure where the lie is.

The biggest problem I can see with the Pro Amateurs here is that they believe people look at magic from a pros point of view. They don't. They look at it as spectators wanting to be entertained. If you are able to fool and entertain people using camera tricks than do it.

The magicians main goal is to trick and entertain. It doesn't matter how you do it.

You need to stop pretending like there is this set of ethics that are broken if you use camera tricks.

And I find it insulting that everyone keeps saying I must not have the experience to understand. Then good I don't and that proves my point. I look at it from the spectators point of view. Stop looking at magic through a magicians eyes.


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