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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:33 pm 
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thecooltonto wrote:
Ok lets go with your logic here and say camera tricks are just fine.... yes!!!! That means I am now talented enough to get on tv and become a millionaire and famous!!! I mean who can't edit videos and look amazing!


If you believe that camera edits are the only criteria for becoming rich and famous in magic than go ahead and do it.


David Blaine and Criss Angel do the same thing. Both have used stooges and BOTH have used camera tricks. Criss Angel has used them more but he does have a regular show. So why is it ok for David Blaine but not Criss Angel. I don't ever hear anyone blast David Blaine but he does the same stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:09 am 
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KingMilo wrote:
Stop looking at magic through a magicians eyes.

Now that is the silliest quote I have read on here in a long long time.

I am a professional magician so everything I look at is through magician's eyes. I am also smart enough to know the difference in how my presentation is viewed by fellow conjurer and a layman.

I have years and years of magic experience and nowhere did I read the book or attend the lecture on using camera tricks to fool your audience.

That is another thing you miss. I do not want to "fool" anyone. I don’t want to trick them, insult their intelligence or make them seem inferior. I practice my art to entertain and entertain only.

I don’t do this for fame, celebrity or money; I do it because I love what I do.

Once again I must tell you that you show a pure lack of knowledge because if you did have a deeper understanding of magic, you would know that there is definitely a Code of Magic Ethics. Criss Angel and to some degree David Blaine are poor examples because they are TV magicians. TV magic is a completely different animal compared to performing before a live audience. Performing live is the favored venue by the way, not sitting alone in your bedroom recording on YouTube.

It's simply pointless to argue with you when you truly don't get it. You don't get it at all.

That is my last word on the subject. I am getting weary. Go read a book…


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:54 am 
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DerZauberer wrote:
I have years and years of magic experience and nowhere did I read the book or attend the lecture on using camera tricks to fool your audience.

That is another thing you miss. I do not want to "fool" anyone. I don’t want to trick them, insult their intelligence or make them seem inferior. I practice my art to entertain and entertain only.

You call my comment silly? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in regards to magic. You don't want to fool or trick anyone? You must be awful then. They are called magic "tricks" for a reason. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Anyone can be fooled by a magic trick. That's the goal.

I'm stunned by your comment.

DerZauberer wrote:
Once again I must tell you that you show a pure lack of knowledge because if you did have a deeper understanding of magic, you would know that there is definitely a Code of Magic Ethics. Criss Angel and to some degree David Blaine are poor examples because they are TV magicians. TV magic is a completely different animal compared to performing before a live audience. Performing live is the favored venue by the way, not sitting alone in your bedroom recording on YouTube.

It's simply pointless to argue with you when you truly don't get it. You don't get it at all.

You have a serious ego problem. It's clear from all your posts that you try to make like an authority on magic. Magic is an art and there is no right or wrong in art. You acting like you know the right and wrong is like an idiot that tells an artist he won't make it because his style doesn't fit with traditional views. Learn to adapt.

David Blaine made most of his money and gained all his fame from performing on tv. So are you saying he isn't a magician or in someway a lesser magician because he doesn't follow your precious code of ethics?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:00 am 
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You must be incredibly dense, or I am correct in saying you don’t get it! What part of “I’m Done.” Did you not understand? Okay – this is the LAST response.

KingMilo wrote:
You call my comment silly? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in regards to magic. You don't want to fool or trick anyone? You must be awful then. They are called magic "tricks" for a reason. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Anyone can be fooled by a magic trick. That's the goal.

Yes, your comment is silly. Live with it! You may perform magic tricks, but I perform magic or if you wish to get technical, “magic effects”. Any 12 year old can perform “magic tricks”. As far as addressing your comment that I am “awful”, I really don’t need to defend that comment since my body of work speaks for itself. i.e. this is what I do for a living.

You are claiming that “fooling people is the goal”. How wrong you are. An amateur will attempt to fool people. A true magician entertains people. If you cannot see the difference well I cannot help you. Again, go read a book.

KingMilo wrote:
And I find it insulting that everyone keeps saying I must not have the experience to understand.

There must be something to this if more than one person has pointed it out.

KingMilo wrote:
You have a serious ego problem. It's clear from all your posts that you try to make like an authority on magic. Magic is an art and there is no right or wrong in art. You acting like you know the right and wrong is like an idiot that tells an artist he won't make it because his style doesn't fit with traditional views.

Being an authority on magic on the Penguin forum is no big deal. Since it’s mostly populated by people breaking into the hobby and wishing to learn. I absoulutely have never claimed to be THE authority on magic; but it’s easy to see how much more I know than you. (Your arguing this thread is proof all by itself – You must not get it – Oh wait I said that already). There are few professionals that frequent here. The ones that are here are offering their experience to help the amateur and novice take the right path; I suggest you take advantage of that instead of arguing points you no nothing about.

Believe it or not there is a right way and wrong way to perform this art. I find it humorous being able to copy/paste this answer, but here it goes: If you cannot see the difference well I cannot help you. Again, go read a book.

Style and Traditional views regarding different "arts" have nothing to do with this debate and you are pushing this thread away from the main subject, but since you bring it up, if you were playing a musical instrument, are you claiming there is no wrong way to play it? (That is a rhetorical question by the way, I don’t expect you to answer it since I am done with this thread so you’ll need to argue with someone else).

KingMilo wrote:
David Blaine made most of his money and gained all his fame from performing on tv. So are you saying he isn't a magician or in someway a lesser magician because he doesn't follow your precious code of ethics?

You took my statement out of context. I never said Blaine wasn’t a Magician. I said he is a TV magician and using him for this particular argument was a poor example. I am sure that if you ever had the opportunity to speak to him he would be aware of the “Magicians Code”.

By the Way, If you do not know what the Magicians Code is, I suggest you go read a book if you wish to pursue magic beyond “fooling people”.

I’m Done, Finished, End of Chapter…


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:23 am 
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bucky310 wrote:
Here we go again, another inexperienced magician comes in, thinks he's got two cents that have not ever been presented here, states his opinion, gets told why he is wrong, gets educated on the real opinions of magicians, he retaliates at some point... this is all following a cycle. For once, after this post, I will stay completely away from this and simply observe.

Oh boy did you call this one correctly! You win a cookie!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:20 pm 
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I'd like to try to make an analogy that might show what I perceive to be the difference between Angel's work and others who have also used editing or stooges. In Pro Wrestling, most of the audience knows it is a work or not a legitimate sporting contest. Yet most fans would have no problem suspending disbelief when the grapplers perform well. If they miss their punches by a mile then the illusion is ruined. When Angel claims to hypnotize an entire restaurant or walks on air from one building to another with only a handful of spectators it is worse than the worst botched in the ring move as it kills the credibility of the performers. If laypeople really bought into Angel's crap then fine, but most people who I ask about him can see through his stuff and realize it's not "traditional magic" but technical tv editing and "cheating". Like they said in the movie Spinal Tap "It's a fine line between genius and stupid."


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:43 pm 
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Dude your stupidity is making me cringe. Fooling people is NOT the goal of magic. If it was, then why would we make it appear we are doing something impossible when instead we could just solve a really hard algebra problem and then tell the people watching us do it that they can't do it?

Because that would be stupid, boring, and pointless. Everyone could find a way to figure out something that someone else cannot figure out.

Magic is about making the impossible appear to be possible. Therefore it is the nature and character of magic to sometimes not be understood by the audience, and then when some people don't get the point of it like you people start mistakingly thinking the point is for magicians to fool you, or for you to figure it out.

Also how many times can you name that Blaine used pure camera trickery? The levitation does not count as that was used as an attempt to protect the secret of an effect Angel chose to expose on tv. I can think of one effect that MIGHT have been a camera trick Blaine did, and thats it, compared to countless times of Angel using them.

Face it you're wrong, and we're right. We know more about magic and its not like we just come to these conclusions for no reasons. Did you really think you were going to say something that no one here had ever thought about, and then we would all be like "Ah yes now I get it! You're right I never thought about that in all the time I have done magic! I sure feel like I don't know anything about or do magic now..." Get real and learn something before you speak next time.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:16 am 
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thecooltonto wrote:
Dude your stupidity is making me cringe. Fooling people is NOT the goal of magic. If it was, then why would we make it appear we are doing something impossible when instead we could just solve a really hard algebra problem and then tell the people watching us do it that they can't do it?

Because that would be stupid, boring, and pointless. Everyone could find a way to figure out something that someone else cannot figure out.

Magic is about making the impossible appear to be possible. Therefore it is the nature and character of magic to sometimes not be understood by the audience, and then when some people don't get the point of it like you people start mistakingly thinking the point is for magicians to fool you, or for you to figure it out.

Also how many times can you name that Blaine used pure camera trickery? The levitation does not count as that was used as an attempt to protect the secret of an effect Angel chose to expose on tv. I can think of one effect that MIGHT have been a camera trick Blaine did, and thats it, compared to countless times of Angel using them.

Face it you're wrong, and we're right. We know more about magic and its not like we just come to these conclusions for no reasons. Did you really think you were going to say something that no one here had ever thought about, and then we would all be like "Ah yes now I get it! You're right I never thought about that in all the time I have done magic! I sure feel like I don't know anything about or do magic now..." Get real and learn something before you speak next time.


Obviously the main part of magic is to ENTERTAIN but you must fool people. Magic is an art of deception and trickery. Without TRICKERY and DECEPTION those impossible things can't seem possible.

The day I take advice from a nobody "pro" that has nothing better to do than hang at a message board all day I'll jump off a cliff. Get over yourself.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:42 am 
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DerZauberer wrote:
bucky310 wrote:
Here we go again, another inexperienced magician comes in, thinks he's got two cents that have not ever been presented here, states his opinion, gets told why he is wrong, gets educated on the real opinions of magicians, he retaliates at some point... this is all following a cycle. For once, after this post, I will stay completely away from this and simply observe.

Oh boy did you call this one correctly! You win a cookie!!!


Alright! I love cookies!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Magicians using camera tricks are no different from singers doing "live concerts" consisting of nothing but lip-syncing. And in Angel's case, you could actually have the singer get on TV right before the concert and say, "this is absolutely, positively, NOT lip-syncing."

You could say something stupid like, "oh but the point of singing is creating music. Who cares how you do it as long as the audience is entertained?"

Yeah... Crissy has succeeded in entertaining many people through the use of trick photography, and that may be fine and dandy for them... but he still cheated. It's unethical and those of us who are aware of his bullsh it will never respect him for it.

Imagine if all the secrets of magic were exposed today. Lay people would look at the slight of hand of Daryl, David Roth, Bill Malone, etc. and think... wow that's really clever and obviously took many hours of practice. They would then look at Criss's constant camera tricks and call him a fraud. By comparison, Criss would look like a pile of sh*t.

ANYONE can do what Criss does, but how many people can handle cards like Jeff McBride? It's a shame because which of these two are on TV the most? Which one has been rewarded more as far as fame and fortune for their "talent?"


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:21 pm 
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KingMilo wrote:
The day I take advice from a nobody "pro" that has nothing better to do than hang at a message board all day I'll jump off a cliff. Get over yourself.

Wait a second, isn't that what you're doing now? Arguing with magicians on a message board all day...

And I think to call George (DerZauberer) "a nobody pro" is quite comical as well. He has performed at the Magic Castle in Hollywood and, as he already stated, magic IS what he actually does for a LIVING! As a job! The very definition of a pro. And if you're so unwilling to take advice from such a knowledgeable PRO, then I do suggest possibly jumping off the cliff, at least off the magic cliff. That's all I have to say about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:36 am 
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DerZauberer wrote:
Believe it or not there is a right way and wrong way to perform this art. I find it humorous being able to copy/paste this answer, but here it goes: If you cannot see the difference well I cannot help you. Again, go read a book.

Style and Traditional views regarding different "arts" have nothing to do with this debate and you are pushing this thread away from the main subject, but since you bring it up, if you were playing a musical instrument, are you claiming there is no wrong way to play it? (That is a rhetorical question by the way, I don’t expect you to answer it since I am done with this thread so you’ll need to argue with someone else).



actually what is right and wrong in the art of magic is merely an opinion

lets use ur musical instrument example

lets say someones playing the guitar and there are 2 men watching one says "there playing it wrong" and the other says "no there playing it right"

tell me whos right and whos wrong?

the point is that neither man is right or wrong because its their opinion

their is a right and wrong but as far as a musical instrument or the art of magic goes its just opinions

but if u want to get even more into this if someone kills someone just because they wanted to kill them and someone says its right their wrong because GOD said it was wrong (but thats a diffrent discussion and i wont start anoher atheist vs christans thread)

but yes magic should be used for entertainment not just to fool people(i will agree with that) there are alot of fake psychics so appearantly not everyone agrees

but their is no right or wrong way to perform it its just an opinion


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:18 pm 
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jonathan_thegreat wrote:


actually what is right and wrong in the art of magic is merely an opinion

lets use ur musical instrument example

lets say someones playing the guitar and there are 2 men watching one says "there playing it wrong" and the other says "no there playing it right"

tell me whos right and whos wrong?

the point is that neither man is right or wrong because its their opinion



Agreed, but Angel is playing the air guitar.


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 Post subject: Re: Thought I had about Criss Angel...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:19 pm 
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I never realized Cirque had anything at all to do with Believe. Has this always been the case or is it new?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:29 pm 
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jonathan_thegreat wrote:
actually what is right and wrong in the art of magic is merely an opinion

lets use ur musical instrument example

lets say someones playing the guitar and there are 2 men watching one says "there playing it wrong" and the other says "no there playing it right"

tell me whos right and whos wrong?

the point is that neither man is right or wrong because its their opinion


Reletivism is wrong. We'll use your same example, but change it around a bit. Lets say we stand two gents side by side. One is color blind and the other is not. The man who is color blind says the sky is grey. It is an honest interpretation, and what the man considers a true assertion. The other man says that the sky is blue. This is also what the man considers to be a true assertion. If what you are saying is true, and they are both correct, then they cannot genuinely disagree. But in case of observed fact they DO disagree.

So when we have a disagreement, one of us is correct, or we are both incorrect. Just because someone THINKS Angel is a good magician doesn't make him one.


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