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 Post subject: If you sugar coat a turd, it's still sh*t.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:20 am 
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Team Penguin

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ok guys. There has been a lot of flurry going on about Paddy and Sluggo's manners and bluntness in this forum.

I just had a chance to read what has been going on and I haven't had a say so in the matter...so here it is:

Sluggo and Paddy are both professionals in the business...we all know this because it has been made clear several times. Sometimes they can be blunt...more-so than not...but it's a GOOD thing. Most of us on these forums are really young and have grown up in the middle of the "Politically Correct" movement where it is socially unacceptable to say anything that someone esle might not like, or might hurt somebody's feelings. Society can NEVER move forward with this sugar coating tactic

When I started out in magic, I recieved several blunt remarks of criticism from older and more experienced magicians...sure it pissed me off at first and I thought "What do they know...their just mean and jealous". It was very ignorant of me to think this way, but I did because I "knew everything".

Eventually, I started performing...the more I performed, the more I suddenly began to realize...these old folks may just have been right. It was hard for me to admit it to myself...but I had to, because I found that I was wrong and they were right...the facts were plain to see! I was stubborn and ignorant and wanted to do things my way...but as it turned out, my way didn't always work.

You have to understand that there are thousands of crappy magicians out there who give the working professionals like us a bad name...simply because they don't do their homework, or they think they can just throw a show together for a quick dollar by buying props from a store and stealing somebody else's routine. These people really piss us off because in the long run, they dissappoint clients, and discourage people from hiring other magicians in the furure.

You should take the blunt remarks and learn from them...not brush them off and get mad. The truth hurts sometimes...the best thing to do is swallow your pride, take a second look, make changes and move on! If everything is sugar coated all the time, we'll never see our mistakes and we'll never make any progress because we will continue to believe that we are on the right path to success (which is a TRUE illusion). Next time somebody of credibility says something to you about your act or efforts...just at least take it into consideration before crossing your arms and pouting in the corner. The sooner you do this, the sooner you can reach your goals and higher means of success!

This is coming from MY OWN experience with the situation. Personally, i've begun to grow stone-hearted towards the "young punks"...and I'm only 21 years old...but it's only because I have LIVED and SEEN what was trying to be explained to me in the first place when I was the young punk.

On a side note, Sluggo has been kind to and supported me for many years now. He had the guts to send a complete stranger whom he met over the internet (myself) a $300 package of information concerning ventriloquism. I learned a LOT and I'll never forget that act of kindness. He has always offered me words of encouragement and friendship...all because I had set my feelings aside and decided to listen in the beginning.

If you gut punch the people who try to help you or who CAN help you, you are shooting yourself in the foot and losing a possible future friendship.

I have only posted this here as a read...you can reply or as questions if you like, but please...NO bashing, or downtalking in this discussion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:50 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Location: Arlington, TX
Do we really need a new topic on this?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:57 am 
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I wrote an "essay" on this topic a couple years back.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:04 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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Location: Visit my blog at magic-yeti.blogspot.com
Kyle,

With all due respect, you ask for no bashing or downtalking in this discussion. Yet this is exactly the courtesy that Sluggo did not extend to this kid. The reason that people are upset is that we want that repulsive behavior to stop. Being blunt is one thing. Sluggo viciously attacked this kid in his response to a fairly innocent question. Just because you like someone doesn't excuse bad behavior. There is no excuse, no matter how deluded his reasoning.

The person that should "swallow his pride" is Sluggo. He should have apologized but ego will not allow it.

And gut-punching? How do you think this kid felt? Put yourself in his shoes for a minute. If someone gut punches you, how receptive are you going to be to his help? You're going to ignore that person. Especially when there were a ton of really great replys to his kid's question as answered by the people that care and want to help. There was no useful information in Sluggo's original reply above statements like "you are a hack." Can you really defend that statement based upon what this kid asked?

We're trying to make this forum a better place to come to by speaking up and saying enough of this. Please don't ask for "no bashing" while excusing this outrageous bashing behavior.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm 
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I will try to learn from everybody, and most importantly from my own mistakes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:48 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Location: Kettle Falls, WA
I have no problem with someone being direct and yes I do believe political correctness is generally out of control but;

Being a total jerk to a young magician has NO place in our art. There are a lot of professional magicians, myself included, who think that it does way more harm than good.

Dave, is your essay posted here? I'd like to read it.

Ted

ps........... lierke......... you have nothing at all to be sorry for in that whole mess. You can check out a performance list that I did in the performers journal section under my name. Maybe it will give you some ideas. Jay Noblezada has some very inspirational words for young magicians. You should read some of his stuff. Is english your first language? You seem very articulate.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:19 am 
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born to perform.

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Guys Paddy is a mod and can just block this... The way I read what you are guys are saying It seems like in a nice way YOU GUYS are still calling him and [edited]...

Oh well most of us will never meet the old guy anyway... If you don't like him ignore him and move on..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:29 am 
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Paddy was invited to be a mod for a reason. Yes he's blunt, some call it "brutally honest" but I've never seen him as a "jerk" no matter what others might want to call him behind the safety of their computer monitor.

If he left Sluggo's post intact there must be a reason. The reason that I see is that Sluggo was telling him what he needed to hear. I wish more people would do the same. If mere words on an internet forum disturb someone, they're in for a rude awakening in the real world. Life is tough, get used to it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:54 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
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Location: South Africa, Durban
I agree that people need to be honest. TheCaffeinator has been PM me ALOT of useful information and he is very honest regarding some choices I made in my short journey in magic. When I first read his comments I was a bit taken back, but now I know that he knows what he is talking about. In all his PMs he has never bashed me the way Sluggo did to lierke, and that caused me to have a great deal of respect for TheCaffeinator.

In my opinion, as true as Sluggo's comments might be, I will not want to listen to him. If you really want to help someone, tell him the truth, but in a way that he will respect you after you said what you needed to say.

Instead of saying "Your a hack", rather say something like "You come across as if you are trying to steal other people's shows that they worked hard on".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:22 am 
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tedricpancoast, I will certainly check out your post, my first language is dutch (flemish), and my second is english, and third is french.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:49 am 
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Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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Location: Milford OH
I'll say this one more time. Sluggo and Kristen said the same thing. the difference is that Sluggo uses a 2 X 4 to get your attention and Kristen uses a silk hankie. I try to be between those 2 but will admit I sometimes get closer to Sluggo's way of phrasing things than Kristens.

The thing is Nobody intended to be insulting. Everybody was reacting to a query. We may have misunderstood what was being asked for. When the asker told us what he really meant we did then offer advice. Let's drop it before it gets to be name calling.

Paddy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:31 am 
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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
DaveV wrote:
Paddy was invited to be a mod for a reason. Yes he's blunt, some call it "brutally honest" but I've never seen him as a "jerk" no matter what others might want to call him behind the safety of their computer monitor.

If he left Sluggo's post intact there must be a reason. The reason that I see is that Sluggo was telling him what he needed to hear. I wish more people would do the same. If mere words on an internet forum disturb someone, they're in for a rude awakening in the real world. Life is tough, get used to it.
Life is tough because of human behaviour. Why do you think we have so many problems in this world.

A word from the good book, the Bible says..... "a 'GENTLE' word turns away 'WRATH.'"

If you don't get the meaning, then I doubt anybody will ever get it. But that answers why we have this kid forum in bad shape at the moment.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:39 am 
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born to perform.

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Posts: 890
I would like to invite everyone to please re-read Kyle's post because it really does have some valuable insight to offer into one young performer's experience in growing up through magic.

Kyle was once a youth magician going through the same things that all the other youths on the forum have gone through. He is now, at the age of 21, become a very successful magician and is still growing stronger. He had an excellent article written about him in the Linking Rings, which is the IBM's monthly magazine.

Reading his story, his advice, would be prudent to all the young members.

Whether you are in a forum, or in the real world as Dave V suggested in his post (i.e. a ring or assembly) your magician friends are going to always give you feedback, even if you don't ask for it. It is their way of helping you to improve and get better. My daughter will often try out new material at our assembly. She did one routine and one of our magicians friends after her performance walked up and without preamble very bluntly said, "I don't like it at all!" Now, this was something she and I had worked hard on, was original material and we could have been crushed. Instead we asked him questions why he did and didn't like it (which he didn't like any aspect of it, LOL) Other magicians friends really liked it, which is something else you have to learn is that magic is subjective. Now if some of our other magicians friends might not have cared for it, they maybe would have taken a softer approach. Either way, I respect all of their opinions and advice and love them all for their friendship and caring. We have found nothing but goodness from the magicians we are lucky enough to call our friends.

In life people are different and have different ways of expressing themselves. It doesn't mean they don't care. People come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and personalities. It is what makes us all so different--- and interesting to get to know. So whether you get hit with a 2x 4, something in between, or a silk hankie, be thankful you have someone that cares enough to respond. You have to remember, the success of every magician is to the benefit of us all.

Kyle, thanks for sharing your story and insight. I know your intentions of posting it and thank you for taking the time not to just re-open a locked subject, but for trying to help the youth on here through your own experiences.

Have a wonderful weekend everyone.

~ Kristen ^_^


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:44 am 
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born to perform.

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Posts: 890
Side note to Sneak---

Quote:
A word from the good book, the Bible says..... "a 'GENTLE' word turns away 'WRATH.'"


Oh, I like this. May I ask what bible verse this is, I'd like to look up the passage.

One of my favorites is:

The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him and I am healed. (from Psalms)

---

Okay sorry guys. Back on topic!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:47 am 
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born to perform.

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If you think people around HERE are too 'brutally honest', you should hang around on the Cafe for a while!!! There's really no comparison! :lol:


Sean


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