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 Post subject: Re: Someone needs to put Angel in his place
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:26 am 
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thecooltonto wrote:
I was just watching mindfreak, I don't quite know why though because you can hardly call it magic and all it does is agitate me, but anyway I'm getting sooooooo sick of Angel, this is why:

1. Any magician that is decently skilled knows Angel is not very talented as far as actual technique goes, especially concerning stuff like sleight of hand. He hardly ever does it. Even if you disagree with that, this is my point here. There are TONS of amazing manipulators out there that are literally hundreds of times more talented with actual technique than Angel, but he constantly claims to be the best at this and that. Its sickening and insulting to those that are more talented than him.

2. He constantly uses camera tricks. To those of you out there that keep on disagreeing with this, it can't even be debated now. He DOES use camera trickery. Deal with it. And to make it worse he claims he doesn't.

3. He exposes magic. Sure most of the stuff is simple, but he has exposed at least 2 or 3 principles that really nice effects I know need to work because its one part of the method to making the effect happen.

4. He exposes other performers now apparently. He exposed some of Blaine's mind reading effects and the Balduci levitation by performing them as bad as he possibly could so that he could deny exposing them if any magician says something about it. But by performing the effects terribly he gave away the methods just as if you messed up an effect and had a person discover the method without you meaning to give it away, although Angel INTENTIONALLY PERFORMED BADLY TO EXPOSE THE METHOD.

5. He insults other performers. He has called Cyril Takayama and cussed him out and accused him of copying him once he had some television deal in Japan from what I've read, although I don't remember the details. I just remember Angel was afraid he would come here on tv and that Cyril implied it was Angel but would not name the person. He also mocked Blaine and exposed the Balduci levitation to make Blaine look talentless. Back when Angel first started out on tv he was constantly challenging Blaine and such as well, and constantly talked about how Blaine hadn't done a single performance on "broadway" or something like that, meaning that Blaine wasn't a stage magician and obviously not talented since he didn't have a stage show.

6. He often claims true, real, supernatural power. The very first episode where he levitated he said "This is not a trick, this is real, what you see is what you get." He also said something similar to that before two other demonstrations as I remember being the steamroller and the one where he walked on screwdrivers, but I can't remember very well. He often claims true real power while performing mentalism as well. During his seance halloween episode I believe he seemed to be talking to the dead, and performed in a manner that gave no disclaimer until the very end of the episode, which I didn't even see like thousands of other viewers because of it being put at the very very end of the episode and only lasting literally half a second.

7. He heckles other performers. He ruined one performance on the show Phenomenon by acting like the guy performing was claiming to be able to communicate with the dead. I may be wrong here but I believe that was just the presentation he chose, but that he did not claim to be a medium or to have powers but only claimed to be a mentalist or illusionist or something like that. Angel also went after Uri Geller for no reason in the process, and while Geller probably deserves it, Angel still had no reason to do so since Geller had acted responsibly on the show by not claiming to have supernatural power. Again I could be mistaken there as well because I didn't watch Phenomenon much.

8. He steals effects from other magicians and sells them as his own. The Criss Angel levitation is truly the Icarus levitation simply turned backwards. Its stealing and he should have to give every penny he made to the creator of the Icarus levitation.

Some magician preferably a very talented one desperately needs to get on tv and show people what a good magician is. And it would be awesome if they would make Angel look bad in the process, for example do some effect he has done with camera trickery without it and say "Some magicians have done this with camera trickery before but I'm not going to do that." Its stupid and immature but after how he mocked and insulted Blaine on the episode I just saw he deserves it. Maybe the masked magician should do an Angel exposed show but only expose his camera tricks lol. Magicians would like him then, at least I would a little, ok I still wouldn't like him for exposing magic but I would like Angel's camera tricks being exposed lol.

I'm just soooooooooo sick of hearing about him from idiots that think he is talented everyday in the magic shop that I work in since I know all this stuff. Angel is an insult to magic.


1. Many skilled magicians such as Jeff McBride, Lance Burton and Penn and Teller are good friends with Criss and respect him. So apparently you're much more technically advanced than they are because you can see Criss' ''obvious'' lack of ability, yet they can't. Uh-huh, sure.

2. I'm going to let you in on a little secret here, um . . . brace yourself, because this may be a bit of a shock, but . . . Magicians LIE! It's part of the act! All magic is in a sense a lie, that's how we fool our audience.
Getting upset with Angel for saying ''I don't use camera tricks'' Is just as pointless as being peeved at him for saying ''I'm going to make this coin dissapear.'' In the end it's just another form of misdirection. What's the big problem with it? Blaine uses camera tricks for his levitation; Copperfield used them when he vanished Lady Liberty, and no one had a problem with them. But if Criss Angel decides to use some editing once in awhile, O God, the complaints start coming. That just Isn't fair.

3. So do Penn and Teller, and a lot of other notable Magicians. Get over it.

4. This statement is false. Angel didn't even come close to exposing Blaine's mentalism effects. He just made random guesses at numbers and cards to be funny. Unless you're saying that this is actually how Blaine does these routines, we can look at what Angel did as a simple parody, nothing more. As for the levitation, well . . . no, that's pretty much how Blaine performed it on his special. Same angles and everything. Again, nothing was given away, he was just poking fun at him.

5. Well, well. I actually agree with you on something! I too feel like Criss' outbursts ruin his image. However, I haven't heard anything about him disagreeing with Cyril on anything, but I'd be happy to read the article you apperantly read. Send it to me.
Now you're just repeating yourself. You already said you thought Angel 'exposed' Blaine, and hopefully what I typed above was a satisfactory rebuttle. Moving on.
You use that word 'constantly' a little loosely, bub. Angel has never 'constantly' bashed anybody. See, this is why I don't take people like you seriousely; you'll take one incident and embellish/magnify it absurdly just to attempt to make your point rather than sticking to the facts.

6. Again, another false statement. Criss has NEVER claimed to have supernatural power, and if you would spend any amount of time with the show, you would see that he often discredits those who do make that claim.
By ''what you see is what you get,'' he means that what he does on the show is what you would see if you watched him live, and has nothing to do with any supernatural claim. And yes, he really does do those stunts you mentioned for real, don't sit there and tell me they are camera tricks too. If Blaine can stand in ice for several days, Angel can walk on spikes for a few seconds. It's not that far fetched

7. Okay, I'll sum this up quickly: Angel didn't 'ruin' the performance. He simply told the guy that he was a fraud. Criss was a judge on that show, and judges are allowed to 'judge' someone's performance if they have a problem with it. Again with your outrageous claims. :roll:

8. Icarus is not the CA levitation, and I'm tired of people saying that it is. It's not Angel's effect, anyway.

It's a pretty bold thing to do, call Angel fans idiots like you did. I'm not sure exactly when bashing Criss Angel became synonymous with being a master magician, but it seems that primarily those who get on his case are either die-hard Blaine fans or people who can't do magic but think they can.
Unfortunately the only arguments these types of people bring up consist of this type of stuff: sifting through Angel's history and taking only certain statements completely out of context, while ignoring the real facts.

I think I'll stick to my guns on this one and still say that Criss Angel is great, and if you think that makes me an idiot, I don't really care, because your opinion doesn't matter to me.[/b]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:23 am 
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Great, you revived a dead topic, thanks for making this forum crappy again. Enjoy your next few weeks of debating with the angel bashers. You made this mess for yourself, have fun living with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:25 am 
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bucky310 wrote:
Great, you revived a dead topic, thanks for making this forum crappy again. Enjoy your next few weeks of debating with the angel bashers. You made this mess for yourself, have fun living with it.


Not really. The last post in here was two days ago. That's not a dead topic. I have said all I have to say on the matter. Whatever anyone says in return doesn't bother me.

Thanks for the warm bloody welcome back, though. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Someone needs to put Angel in his place
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:04 pm 
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MagicMikeguy wrote:

1. Many skilled magicians such as Jeff McBride, Lance Burton and Penn and Teller are good friends with Criss and respect him. So apparently you're much more technically advanced than they are because you can see Criss' ''obvious'' lack of ability, yet they can't. Uh-huh, sure.

I spent a week in Las Veags last month. I can say, beyond any doubt that there is very little, if no respect for Angel in the Las Vegas Magic Community. I met McBride, Eugene Burger, Lance Burton, Penn & Teller, Mac King and Dirk Losander. (I also had a LONG conversation with Johnny Thompson at the Magic Castle recently). The general consensus is, Criss burned his own bridges and insulted too many people.

Criss has proven his lack of ability by simply comparing the impossible feats on his Cable show and his lackluster performance in his live show.


2. I'm going to let you in on a little secret here, um . . . brace yourself, because this may be a bit of a shock, but . . . Magicians LIE! It's part of the act! All magic is in a sense a lie, that's how we fool our audience.
Getting upset with Angel for saying ''I don't use camera tricks'' Is just as pointless as being peeved at him for saying ''I'm going to make this coin dissapear.'' In the end it's just another form of misdirection. What's the big problem with it? Blaine uses camera tricks for his levitation; Copperfield used them when he vanished Lady Liberty, and no one had a problem with them. But if Criss Angel decides to use some editing once in awhile, O God, the complaints start coming. That just Isn't fair.

Angel has gone beyond the normal "deception" magicians use in performance. Yes - Magicians lie, without guilt, to achieve their goals; but Angel has ruined decades of trust that other magicians have built since the late fifties regarding their TV audiences. There are Criss Angel Loyal knuckleheads that will swear to god that what Angel does is authentic and no camera tricks are involved. There is another BIG difference here - Angel uses camera tricks to hide his lack of skill and magic ability. His constant, "What you see is what you get." his laughable.

3. So do Penn and Teller, and a lot of other notable Magicians. Get over it.

Penn and Teller usually expose their own material. If they expose classical material, like the cups and balls, for example, they do it in such a confusing and entertaining way, the audience cannot recall the actual secret to repeat the effect. Also, Penn & Teller are brilliant entertainers with actual skill


6. Again, another false statement. Criss has NEVER claimed to have supernatural power, and if you would spend any amount of time with the show, you would see that he often discredits those who do make that claim.
By ''what you see is what you get,'' he means that what he does on the show is what you would see if you watched him live, and has nothing to do with any supernatural claim. And yes, he really does do those stunts you mentioned for real, don't sit there and tell me they are camera tricks too. If Blaine can stand in ice for several days, Angel can walk on spikes for a few seconds. It's not that far fetched

"What you see is what you get." is a blatant fabrication. If Criss could actually perform these miraculous stunts and feats of magic, without the aid of camera tricks and impossible/practical methods, don't you think he would be performing them, LIVE, nightly at the Luxor?

7. Okay, I'll sum this up quickly: Angel didn't 'ruin' the performance. He simply told the guy that he was a fraud. Criss was a judge on that show, and judges are allowed to 'judge' someone's performance if they have a problem with it. Again with your outrageous claims. :roll:

There is a code of decorum in the world of professional magicians. One is heckling a magician during a performance; Criss did just that. He did not call out any other performer during the shows run; why is that? Criss was not put on the show to "judge" the contestants, he was put on the show to draw an audience since the network had little faith in Uri Gellar doing it for himself. (A huge mistake on NBC's part I might add since, World Wide, Gellar's show is getting stellar ratings, but the US version - with Angel - tanked horribly). Criss had also planned to attack Jim Callahan's performance from the get go since he had prepared his prediction envelopes prior to the show. Did you actually watch the show, or only heard about it or saw "clips" on YouTube?

There are no outrageous claims here - everyone involved with that show, including Gellar and the magic advisors agreed Angel's behavior was deplorable.

( I as actually slated to appear on that show, and thank goodness I was not picked. I was assured by the producers, along with all the other performers, that this show would showcase their work and they would not be attacked. I guess Angel did not get that memo).


I think I'll stick to my guns on this one and still say that Criss Angel is great, and if you think that makes me an idiot, I don't really care, because your opinion doesn't matter to me.[/b]

If Angel critics opinions don't matter, why take the time to post several comments on this forum defending this hack?



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:22 pm 
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I had resolved, some time ago, that arguing about this talentless hack was pointless and did not contribute to the Art in a positive way. However, it irks me when Criss Angel defenders, fans or admirers argue without having all of the true facts.

If Criss Angel inspires people with a positive interest in Magic, then no one can argue with that. But it's important, to those that found an interest, to realize that there is so much more to experience and learn without the terrible examples made by Criss Angel.

I would give the same advice to those that were inspired to pursue magic by watching the horrible and amateur examples on YouTube...


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 Post subject: Re: Someone needs to put Angel in his place
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:56 pm 
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DerZauberer wrote:
MagicMikeguy wrote:

1. Many skilled magicians such as Jeff McBride, Lance Burton and Penn and Teller are good friends with Criss and respect him. So apparently you're much more technically advanced than they are because you can see Criss' ''obvious'' lack of ability, yet they can't. Uh-huh, sure.

I spent a week in Las Veags last month. I can say, beyond any doubt that there is very little, if no respect for Angel in the Las Vegas Magic Community. I met McBride, Eugene Burger, Lance Burton, Penn & Teller, Mac King and Dirk Losander. (I also had a LONG conversation with Johnny Thompson at the Magic Castle recently). The general consensus is, Criss burned his own bridges and insulted too many people.

Criss has proven his lack of ability by simply comparing the impossible feats on his Cable show and his lackluster performance in his live show.


2. I'm going to let you in on a little secret here, um . . . brace yourself, because this may be a bit of a shock, but . . . Magicians LIE! It's part of the act! All magic is in a sense a lie, that's how we fool our audience.
Getting upset with Angel for saying ''I don't use camera tricks'' Is just as pointless as being peeved at him for saying ''I'm going to make this coin dissapear.'' In the end it's just another form of misdirection. What's the big problem with it? Blaine uses camera tricks for his levitation; Copperfield used them when he vanished Lady Liberty, and no one had a problem with them. But if Criss Angel decides to use some editing once in awhile, O God, the complaints start coming. That just Isn't fair.

Angel has gone beyond the normal "deception" magicians use in performance. Yes - Magicians lie, without guilt, to achieve their goals; but Angel has ruined decades of trust that other magicians have built since the late fifties regarding their TV audiences. There are Criss Angel Loyal knuckleheads that will swear to god that what Angel does is authentic and no camera tricks are involved. There is another BIG difference here - Angel uses camera tricks to hide his lack of skill and magic ability. His constant, "What you see is what you get." his laughable.

3. So do Penn and Teller, and a lot of other notable Magicians. Get over it.

Penn and Teller usually expose their own material. If they expose classical material, like the cups and balls, for example, they do it in such a confusing and entertaining way, the audience cannot recall the actual secret to repeat the effect. Also, Penn & Teller are brilliant entertainers with actual skill


6. Again, another false statement. Criss has NEVER claimed to have supernatural power, and if you would spend any amount of time with the show, you would see that he often discredits those who do make that claim.
By ''what you see is what you get,'' he means that what he does on the show is what you would see if you watched him live, and has nothing to do with any supernatural claim. And yes, he really does do those stunts you mentioned for real, don't sit there and tell me they are camera tricks too. If Blaine can stand in ice for several days, Angel can walk on spikes for a few seconds. It's not that far fetched

"What you see is what you get." is a blatant fabrication. If Criss could actually perform these miraculous stunts and feats of magic, without the aid of camera tricks and impossible/practical methods, don't you think he would be performing them, LIVE, nightly at the Luxor?

7. Okay, I'll sum this up quickly: Angel didn't 'ruin' the performance. He simply told the guy that he was a fraud. Criss was a judge on that show, and judges are allowed to 'judge' someone's performance if they have a problem with it. Again with your outrageous claims. :roll:

There is a code of decorum in the world of professional magicians. One is heckling a magician during a performance; Criss did just that. He did not call out any other performer during the shows run; why is that? Criss was not put on the show to "judge" the contestants, he was put on the show to draw an audience since the network had little faith in Uri Gellar doing it for himself. (A huge mistake on NBC's part I might add since, World Wide, Gellar's show is getting stellar ratings, but the US version - with Angel - tanked horribly). Criss had also planned to attack Jim Callahan's performance from the get go since he had prepared his prediction envelopes prior to the show. Did you actually watch the show, or only heard about it or saw "clips" on YouTube?

There are no outrageous claims here - everyone involved with that show, including Gellar and the magic advisors agreed Angel's behavior was deplorable.

( I as actually slated to appear on that show, and thank goodness I was not picked. I was assured by the producers, along with all the other performers, that this show would showcase their work and they would not be attacked. I guess Angel did not get that memo).


I think I'll stick to my guns on this one and still say that Criss Angel is great, and if you think that makes me an idiot, I don't really care, because your opinion doesn't matter to me.[/b]

If Angel critics opinions don't matter, why take the time to post several comments on this forum defending this hack?



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“Ars Celare Verum”
The Magic & Illusion of Georges-Robert

http://www.mysteryandillusion.com


Hey listen, I'm not denying that Angel is going about it wrong sometimes, and you made some good points here, but I still think a lot of these arguments come down to opinion. In your opinion Angel is a talentless hack, but I just don't see how he could be because you don't get as far as he has if you have absolutely no talent.

If you want to hate Criss Angel, that's your right, and it's the popular thing to do right now, so you'll fit right in, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as most claim. Angel has good and bad sides to him, and whether or not you are impressed with him, he is out to impress laypeople, not magicians, and he's getting people excited about magic again.

I don't completely dissagree with you, but I still think Angel is great. Just my opinion. And I agree with you about the Loyals: they praise everything he does no matter what, and that's just naive.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone needs to put Angel in his place
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:10 pm 
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MagicMikeguy wrote:
Hey listen, I'm not denying that Angel is going about it wrong sometimes, and you made some good points here, but I still think a lot of these arguments come down to opinion. In your opinion Angel is a talentless hack, but I just don't see how he could be because you don't get as far as he has if you have absolutely no talent.

If you want to hate Criss Angel, that's your right, and it's the popular thing to do right now, so you'll fit right in, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as most claim. Angel has good and bad sides to him, and whether or not you are impressed with him, he is out to impress laypeople, not magicians, and he's getting people excited about magic again.

I don't completely dissagree with you, but I still think Angel is great. Just my opinion. And I agree with you about the Loyals: they praise everything he does no matter what, and that's just naive.

Let's get one thing crystal clear. Never have I been quoted as saying that I "hate" Criss Angel. Let's stop that right now. Do not misquote me or weave the word "hate" into what I believe. Do I have respect for the guy - no - but I never hate.

As far as me making "good points" my so-called opinion is based on cold facts and firsthand knowledge of his lack of skill and inflated ego.

I don't voice my choices, opinions or philosophies based on what is "Popular" or "Right". I make my own choices based on my personal life experiences, morals and knowledge attained through education, research and life in general. Saying that, I have NEVER had a high opinion of Criss Angel and I had clearly seen through his facade the day I heard about him. I have no need to "fit in" - I am strong enough to follow my own path.

And there is one statement you made that is just plain false. Criss does not care if he impresses laymen or not he only cares about himself. Furthermore, once-upon-a-time, he very much cared about impressing other magicians. He used a great deal of them and sucked them dry of advice and instruction before firing them or insulting them.

You may think he is "Great", but many professional working magicians will not share your opinion, choice or enthusiasm at all.

I say "talentless hack" because I have heard that term when his name comes up in magic conversation again and again. (As I mentioned before, the ridiculous contrast in his impossible stunts on his cable TV show and the flat, 2-dimensional persona he emanates on his live show is proof all by itself).

Read any review of his Luxor show and come back and say how "great" they think he is...

Lastly - you are very much entitled to your opinion, but being a champion of Criss Angel will not earn you very much respect in the REAL magic world, so don't be too surprised if you are not taken seriously in magic forums.

For reinforcment, here is Penn Jillette speaking about Criss Angel and BeLIEve... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUb-LDB8OJc


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