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 Post subject: GRRRRRR Retention Vanish
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:46 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89-druhheLg
I've been practicing this move for so long and I just can't get it right, I can't get it to look like the ROV pass that the great coin workers have, I know that a lot of those famous coin magicians have been doing coin magic for decades, but it's not like I started practicing a week ago...
Anyone here have a perfect retention pass and can help me improve mine?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:08 am 
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Is that link yours? If so that's respectable IMHO..


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:57 pm 
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It actually looks really good to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:57 pm 
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That looked pretty darn good to me ... I think you're underestimating yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Stop complaining, it looks pretty darn good. When I do it, I always have like a jerky movement for some reason.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:58 pm 
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It looked PRETTY good, I want it to look perfect, like when your'e watching a video of someone placing a coin in his hand and before he opens his hand you think to yourself that there's no way he just retained that coin, and then the guy opens his hand and you swear like a [edited]
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VwAWSHyAyY


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:28 pm 
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The vanish itself looks pretty good. But what is going on with your thumb? Your right thumb pops out whenever you make the move. That may be what is taking away the naturalness of the move. Just an observation.

Keep at it! If coin magic were easy, there would be as many coin magic books as card magic books! =P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:07 pm 
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In real time you will be pattering, misdirecting, moving quickly, ect. so don't worry about it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:24 pm 
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remf3 wrote:
The vanish itself looks pretty good. But what is going on with your thumb? Your right thumb pops out whenever you make the move. That may be what is taking away the naturalness of the move. Just an observation.

Keep at it! If coin magic were easy, there would be as many coin magic books as card magic books! =P


Very true words
And thanks for the advice, I'll work on it!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:30 am 
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I stopped releasing the thumb and it looks better now, but I still have no idea how to make it look like this:
http://fantasmamagic.net/product_info.p ... aeb0d97b44

I need someone with a retention vanish like this to help me =[
Anyone here has a perfect retention pass?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:47 am 
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It's a matter of practice and confidence. Seriously. You have not been doing your retention vanish anywhere near as long as Roth has, so don't beat yourself up comparing yourself to his.

If you want to learn the mechanical specifics of how Roth does it, get his videos. But that in itself won't do it.

What it really comes down to is careful, slow, deliberate, attentive practice for a long, long time. There's no silver bullet here.

If you want your vanish to look a certain way, then practice with a mirror. Go through the motions of how you want the move to look without actually doing it. In other words, don't vanish the coin. Actually place it in the other hand. Get those motions down... really feel them... then work on acheiving the same look with the actual vanish.

Basically, that's the same advice you will get from pretty much any instructional source on the retention of vision vanish. The details of the physical implementation are up to you. After a certain point, watching someone else won't do any good; you have to watch yourself.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Great advice, thanks a lot!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:13 am 
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daniel116 wrote:
It looked PRETTY good, I want it to look perfect, like when your'e watching a video of someone placing a coin in his hand and before he opens his hand you think to yourself that there's no way he just retained that coin, and then the guy opens his hand and you swear like a [edited]
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VwAWSHyAyY


My teacher from years ago has a far superior retention vanish with coins than what is show in this video. When I would watch him do it, you would swear up and down that he really put the coin in his hand. He would have everybody fooled, even some of the most sophisticated and tough spectators. He was an amazing fellow to watch perform and his magic was just absolutely amazing. Even when you knew what he was doing you would still be amazed because his sleight of hand was just phenemonal; it would fool your eyes and it was still just a pleasure to watch him perform and to learn from him. My retention vanish with sponge balls is as good as his retention vanish with coins (he of course also had an absolutely perfect retention vanish with sponge balls as well and I eventually got my retention vanish with sponge balls as good as his, but my retention with coins was not as good as his).

I might go ahead and work on getting my retention vanish with coins as good as my old teacher's retention vanish with coins (I have already gotten my sponge ball retention vanish down as good as his and I have yet to see a magician both pro and amateur that has as good as a retention vanish in both sponge balls or coins as what was taught to me). It took alot of years of practice and experience to get my retention vanish down with sponge balls really good (I will be using only two sponge balls to cause one sponge ball to vanish from my hand and have it magically appear in his hand with the other sponge ball, been accused of using three sponge balls and they will just watch my hand that I did the retention vanish on intently to be sure that I never take out my sponge ball from that hand, but they never realize that I never put it in my hand in the first place and handed them two sponge balls). It will be the same with the coin retention vanish as well. In this art, you learn, that nothing comes instantly or easy and everything you learn that is worth having comes through alot of years of practice, patience and experience. The art of magic gives nothing of great value to you easily or for free. These sophisticated spectators would come up with all these crazy theories of how I managed to get one sponge ball to vanish from my hand and reappear in their own hand never realize that I used the most simple of concepts to fool them and they swear up and down that I really put it in my hand. It's because the retention vanish looks so real and convincing that the idea that I gave them two sponge balls seems totally infeasible and impossible to them. Me, as a performing amateur magican, I am still amazed at how people are fooled by the simplest of concepts. I would think they woud be able to figuire it out even if my retention vanish is very good, yet, it still fools them and you know, these are adults, smart, well educated and sophisticated people who are a tough crowd. Yet they are fooled by it. It's just so amazing to me and boggles my mind how they are fooled. So i just play along and act all amazed and just have fun with it.


I might throw up on youtube a video showing the retention vanish I use for sponge balls and teach others how I do it if anybody is interested. I will of course, pay proper respects to my teacher who taught me the retention vanish. It's not easy to learn it. I've tried to teach it to a few people already and they haven't been able to master it. But then again, they might not have had the die hard determination to put in the practice and learn it. I am sure, though, many people here do though.

PS- But yeah, I understand your fustration in learning the retention vanish. It's a pain in the [edited] to learn and just takes alot of time, practice and patience. It's not as easy as people think to get a solid and awesome retention vanish. It's very difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: GRRRRRR Retention Vanish
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:28 am 
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Location: Racine, WI
daniel116 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89-druhheLg
I've been practicing this move for so long and I just can't get it right, I can't get it to look like the ROV pass that the great coin workers have, I know that a lot of those famous coin magicians have been doing coin magic for decades, but it's not like I started practicing a week ago...
Anyone here have a perfect retention pass and can help me improve mine?


I second everyone here -- you're not giving yourself enough credit. I've been on hiatus for the past month, not practicing coin magic; your video was one of the first things I've seen and you definitely fooled my eyes a few times.

Have said that, here are my suggestions, since you asked, taken straight from the master himself, David Roth (I apologize in advance for any repetition, as I have not read this entire post; I'm assuming you're right handed, too):

1) When closing your left fist, keep your fingers straight and together...

...close the hand by pivoting the knuckle joints. Letting the spectator catch a glimpse of the coin through your left hand fingers at first is okay (actually, it adds to the ROV), but, when closing the fist, you must keep the fingers together to block the view of your right (middle and ring) finger tips which make the steal.

2) When "putting" the coin in your left hand, keep your right index finger as motionless as possible...

...in fact, if you can keep your thumb and middle finger motionless, too, as it will add to the illusion. Any major movements of the thumb and index finger/knuckle will draw attention off of the coin. Because of this, it is ideal to make the steal with the tips of your right middle and ring fingers. Both of these points (right finger motion and the steal) lead to another great tip...

3) Do not palm the coin immediately after the pass...

...because any extra motion of the right hand will suggest to the spectator that the hand in question is "dirty." Thus, you want to keep the stolen coin in fingertip rest for a few moments while the attention has completely switched hands. One of the hallmarks of a solid ROV fingertip pass is the lack of movement of the dirty hand. Personally, I will either wait until the reveal* to palm the coin, or I will palm under the guise of snapping my (right hand) fingers.

* For the first reveal, I slowly open my left hand with a crumbling motion, as most do; however, I always move my left hand abrubtly away from the right hand after the pass... this rapid motion is a great use of misdirection because the eyes of most people will follow such movement by reflex.

Best Wishes,
Kyle


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:41 pm 
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well i have a decent retention pass. I have been practicing it for about 2 years i'd say. And one thing i will say is that a really good retention pass is more about timing than finger movement. There are dozens of ways to pull the coin back into your hand and almost any of them can look really good with the right timing. Also giacomo's retention is something that i have been working on. Its a third finger retention where he pops it onto his third finger instead of a conventional finger tip rest. It looks really good when done well cuzz it seems to cut down on finger movement. The reason it takes so long to get a really good retention is because you don't just have to master a technical movement; you have to get the timing. And funny enough, good timing takes time. If you go watch that guy "ponta the smith" on the frenchdroptube youtube channel you will see that his stuff looks soooooo good because of his expert timing. (not to mention his amazing technical skill)


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