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 Post subject: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:08 pm 
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Hi, I have been practicing the strike second deal a lot lately. I was curious, when cheating, when would you use a second deal over a bottom deal? Why not a bottom deal? When you do a bottom deal, you can control more cards, not just one.

One more question, when I searched for "Strike second deal" on YouTube, everyone was taking the card from the side of the deck (the bigger side), I have been taking it from the front of the of the deck (the smaller side), when practicing, is that wrong?

Thank You!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:36 am 
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#1) NEVER use youtube to judge whether or not you're doing something correctly. Most of the people there aren't doing them right, in the first place. #2)If the Second matches your top, then the technique is correct.

The Second Deal is extremely useful in situations where you're using a marked/punched deck. In magic, Martin Nash has dozens of uses in print.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:46 am 
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A second deal is useless for the real cheats. I was talking with Jason England because a guy wanted me to come up with new cheating moves for poker and we discussed how the second deal is pointless. Nowadays, second dealing is used only by magicians, not cheats.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:33 am 
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exodus wrote:
#1) NEVER use youtube to judge whether or not you're doing something correctly. Most of the people there aren't doing them right, in the first place. #2)If the Second matches your top, then the technique is correct.
Thank you, but what is the original way of doing the strike second deal? From the front of the deck, or from the side of the deck?


exodus wrote:
The Second Deal is extremely useful in situations where you're using a marked/punched deck. In magic, Martin Nash has dozens of uses in print.
What are marked/punched decks? And how is it useful then?
Where can I find Martin Nash's uses?
But in cheating other than that, there isn't much use, right?
I only use these for entertainment, and demonstration purposes, no real cheating, :)

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:36 am 
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benji11 wrote:
A second deal is useless for the real cheats. I was talking with Jason England because a guy wanted me to come up with new cheating moves for poker and we discussed how the second deal is pointless. Nowadays, second dealing is used only by magicians, not cheats.

Thank you, I was kind of confused. But at least for magic tricks, and for what Exodus said, it's useful :].

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:43 am 
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Asdff1818 wrote:
Thank you, but what is the original way of doing the strike second deal? From the front of the deck, or from the side of the deck?

Erdnase's description has the card coming primarily out of the side of the deck but I think most people actually pull it diagonally. Ex is right. Figure out how you deal and then attempt to do your bottom and second deals as close to how that looks as possible.

As for usefulness? Erdanase even says it is primarily a technique for use with a marked deck. This backs up both Ex's comments and Benji's(shameless name dropping forgiven :wink: ) and leads me to conclude that it was not a workhorse sleight for a gambler even at the turn of the century.

Not being a card cheat i can't conjecture further though I can say that I have found a lot of use for second deals especially for putting cards with gaffed backs into play.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:42 am 
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eostresh wrote:
Erdnase's description has the card coming primarily out of the side of the deck but I think most people actually pull it diagonally. Ex is right. Figure out how you deal and then attempt to do your bottom and second deals as close to how that looks as possible.

Thank you, but I deal from the side of the deck, when I am just putting cards on the table (what you do when counting how many cards there are), but I deal from the front of the deck, when I am actually throwing it, to deal it to people, but since most bottom deals are from the side, to keep everything the same, do you think that I should start over and practice doing the strike with the card coming from the side of the deck? So I will know two styles of the strike second deal.


eostresh wrote:
As for usefulness? Erdanase even says it is primarily a technique for use with a marked deck. This backs up both Ex's comments and Benji's(shameless name dropping forgiven :wink: ) and leads me to conclude that it was not a workhorse sleight for a gambler even at the turn of the century.
What is a marked deck?

eostresh wrote:
Not being a card cheat i can't conjecture further though I can say that I have found a lot of use for second deals especially for putting cards with gaffed backs into play
I talked to a few card cheats, asking them this question, and they answered that one card can make a big difference during a game, (but I was confused why not to use a bottom deal, because then you could control more cards, and now this thread makes more sense :)) they also said that it would be useful for burned cards, and marked cards (which I googled, but I still don't know what it is, lol :lol:), and for magic tricks, but (for magic tricks), couldn't you still use a bottom deal instead?
Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:30 pm 
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When it comes to playing poker...cheats do not use a second deal. They don't even use center deals. If anything, they will use a greek deal (bottom dealing with the cut card). In a house cash game, they usually have dealers just like how you see on tv. The ones that don't have dealers and usually low stakes games. So unless the dealer is in on it, then even a greek deal is pointless to the cheat.

Most cheaters recruit people to their house game so they control the environment.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:41 pm 
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1.Marked cards are when the back of the cards a "marked" so you know what is in the face.
2.You should make your deals look consistent. So yes to that one. You should start over with one or the other.
3. Bottom deals are useful for magic but for what I'm referring to the second deal is still better. Imagine you are about to do a trick that uses a card with a gaffed back. Control it 2nd from the top. Now you can freely show the back of the card, pull double to show the front if you like, either way a second deal will bring your gaffed card into play.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:58 pm 
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benji11 wrote:
When it comes to playing poker...cheats do not use a second deal. They don't even use center deals. If anything, they will use a greek deal (bottom dealing with the cut card). In a house cash game, they usually have dealers just like how you see on tv. The ones that don't have dealers and usually low stakes games. So unless the dealer is in on it, then even a greek deal is pointless to the cheat.

Most cheaters recruit people to their house game so they control the environment.

Thanks, I meant when the cheater controls the environment, like a demo.

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:09 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
1.Marked cards are when the back of the cards a "marked" so you know what is in the face.
Oh, but how does second dealing help with that?
eostresh wrote:
2.You should make your deals look consistent. So yes to that one. You should start over with one or the other..
:S, so much practice, lol, but I'll still use that one when taking the card from the front of the deck, when throwing.
eostresh wrote:
3. Bottom deals are useful for magic but for what I'm referring to the second deal is still better. Imagine you are about to do a trick that uses a card with a gaffed back. Control it 2nd from the top. Now you can freely show the back of the card, pull double to show the front if you like, either way a second deal will bring your gaffed card into play.
That makes sense.

Thank you for your help also!


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Asdff1818 wrote:
eostresh wrote:
1.Marked cards are when the back of the cards a "marked" so you know what is in the face.
Oh, but how does second dealing help with that?

My understanding is that you are on the lookout for a usefull card. Ie. Your confederate(The guy you want to deal a good hand to) already has at least one king. In the course of dealing another one pops up. You second deal until you get to your confederate and than deal him the second king. Obviously this method is not as sure fire as dealing from the bottom or , as Benji suggested doing a Greek deal, but it must have, or had, some uses as it was a method pointed out by Erdnase.

Allan Ackerman describes a method of dealing 5ths, 4ths, ect in his Advanced Card Control DVD on false deals. It's a pretty nifty technique that has lots of applications for the magician doing a gambling demo, though very few for an actual gambler I suspect.
Quote:
Thank you for your help also!

No problem


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:55 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
My understanding is that you are on the lookout for a usefull card. Ie. Your confederate(The guy you want to deal a good hand to) already has at least one king. In the course of dealing another one pops up. You second deal until you get to your confederate and than deal him the second king. Obviously this method is not as sure fire as dealing from the bottom or , as Benji suggested doing a Greek deal, but it must have, or had, some uses as it was a method pointed out by Erdnase.
I understand, makes sense.

eostresh wrote:
Allan Ackerman describes a method of dealing 5ths, 4ths, ect in his Advanced Card Control DVD on false deals. It's a pretty nifty technique that has lots of applications for the magician doing a gambling demo, though very few for an actual gambler I suspect.
That is interesting, maybe I will buy a one.

Asdff1818 wrote:
:S, so much practice, lol, but I'll still use that one when taking the card from the front of the deck, when throwing.
Apparently the other strike style is helping me with this one, I started practicing, and it is much easier now, and I don't think that many people do the style that you take the card from the front of the deck, so I can do it (when throwing the cards to deal), and people won`t be very suspicious.

Thanks again!
And thanks everyone!
Great help.


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 Post subject: Re: Second Deal Use
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:42 pm 
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I have personally used the second deal in a cheating situation when the card on top was more useful for me than the one on the bottom.

Martin Nash has some good uses in his books and videos, Simon Lovell also has some (he does a beautiful push off). But sometimes, if you have a good second deal, the best thing to do with it is show people the second deal. Demonstrate it as a feat of skill as Ricky Jay, Steve Forte and others do.


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