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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 18
eostresh wrote:
Just got finished watching the demo for fast company. It looks like it covers a lot of the basics from erdnase so I would focus on the moves you are interested in, find out which Ackermann dvd covers those moves(I don't have the one on culls) and check that out.
I'll do that :).


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:02 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 878
Location: Toronto
eostresh wrote:
That could have been done with a stacked deck as well? Not really sure. If you are interested in culling check out either the Roadrunner Cull DVD or the Cullfather DVD.

I was most impressed with the pass!

BTW What ever happened with that arrest back in 2008? Is he like...in "the joint?"


There was NO pass in the video, the center dealing demo is done using a very clever ploy, one probably no one but Forte could make look that good.

I believe Steve was cleared of all charges in July of 2009.


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:08 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 878
Location: Toronto
Asdff1818 wrote:
Hi, how can I do something like Steve did here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9VA1riEM at 0:55, when the guy names the four of a kind (9's) and steve brings them to the top, right after a few shuffles and cuts, I don't need that exact method, just a way that I can find cards in the middle, just like that. Where can I learn that.

And btw, I don't know if that is a cull I think a cull is looking through the cards, and bringing the desired cards to the top, is it? And what exactly is that called?

Thank You!!!!


There's a bit of history behind that TV appearance that can be found in the October 2005 issue of Genii with Steve Forte on the cover. It's quite an interesting read. Keep in mind that Steve Forte is in all likelihood THE most knowledgeable and skilled card man on the planet, so whatever method he used to cull the four nines, we're probably never going to know from watching that clip alone.

As everyone recommended, Erdnase's Expert at the Card Table is one of the best resources to have around. I really can't say enough about how important its study is to the development of one's abilities. It's a hard read, and its benefits may not be immediately apparent, but you will reap great returns in time from studying it.

Do NOT get the Wesley James DVD's, they are widely regarded by the community as, to be blunt, the biggest piece of crap ever made. Phantom Notebooks had a hilarious review of it at one point, but is unfortunately no longer available... I haven't seen Ackermann, but from what I have heard, he doesn't do Erdnase justice either. Try searching this topic up on the cafe and you'll see what I mean in terms of DVD's. If you want to see moves in Erdnase done well and with insightful comments, try the Vernon Revelations DVD's. Not everything is on there, but a great deal is, and of course, it's Vernon. Almost all of Vernon's output to magic is worth studying.

As I understand it, you're looking for a cull of cards distributed in the deck during a riffle shuffle. There isn't alot published on the topic, though David Ben did promise us a book in the near future devoted entirely to the topic. There was a very insightful thread on the genii forum where David Ben contributed, you might want to check that out. As for the technique, try the Stevens Riffle Cull in the newly published version of Vernon's Revelation, the commentary on Erdnase. It is fiendishly difficult and widely regarded as probably the most difficult technique along with the center deal in all of card magic.

If you live in Toronto, go to Browser's Den and look for two people by the names of Ben Train or Shane Cobolt, and they might be able to help you out. Or you can knock on David Ben's door, though he might just release the hounds on you...

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 2753
porcupine wrote:
There was NO pass in the video, the center dealing demo is done using a very clever ploy, one probably no one but Forte could make look that good.

I believe Steve was cleared of all charges in July of 2009.

Well whatever it was it looked d@mn good!

Didn't know Revelations was on a DVD set. Guess it's been around so long newer guys like me never heard of it. Nice find!


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:10 am 
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 18
porcupine wrote:
There's a bit of history behind that TV appearance that can be found in the October 2005 issue of Genii with Steve Forte on the cover. It's quite an interesting read. Keep in mind that Steve Forte is in all likelihood THE most knowledgeable and skilled card man on the planet, so whatever method he used to cull the four nines, we're probably never going to know from watching that clip alone.
That's not good, :(.

porcupine wrote:
As everyone recommended, Erdnase's Expert at the Card Table is one of the best resources to have around. I really can't say enough about how important its study is to the development of one's abilities. It's a hard read, and its benefits may not be immediately apparent, but you will reap great returns in time from studying it.
I will get it, it is probably very good, I hear about it everywhere, and I have researched about it, so I know a little bit about it.

porcupine wrote:
Do NOT get the Wesley James DVD's, they are widely regarded by the community as, to be blunt, the biggest piece of crap ever made. Phantom Notebooks had a hilarious review of it at one point, but is unfortunately no longer available... I haven't seen Ackermann, but from what I have heard, he doesn't do Erdnase justice either. Try searching this topic up on the cafe and you'll see what I mean in terms of DVD's. If you want to see moves in Erdnase done well and with insightful comments, try the Vernon Revelations DVD's. Not everything is on there, but a great deal is, and of course, it's Vernon. Almost all of Vernon's output to magic is worth studying.
I didn't know about the DVD either, and come the Wesley James one is so bad? I think I've read that somewhere else, but why?

porcupine wrote:
As I understand it, you're looking for a cull of cards distributed in the deck during a riffle shuffle. There isn't alot published on the topic, though David Ben did promise us a book in the near future devoted entirely to the topic. There was a very insightful thread on the genii forum where David Ben contributed, you might want to check that out. As for the technique, try the Stevens Riffle Cull in the newly published version of Vernon's Revelation, the commentary on Erdnase. It is fiendishly difficult and widely regarded as probably the most difficult technique along with the center deal in all of card magic.
Isn't the Stevens Riffle Cull a false cull? I've read something like that somewhere. If so, is there any real riffle shuffle cull?

porcupine wrote:
If you live in Toronto, go to Browser's Den and look for two people by the names of Ben Train or Shane Cobolt, and they might be able to help you out. Or you can knock on David Ben's door, though he might just release the hounds on you...
Who are these guys?

Thank You!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:45 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 878
Location: Toronto
Asdff1818 wrote:
That's not good, :(.


Yeah, it's unfortunate that us mere mortals will probably just have to keep guessing at Forte's methods, He can do some freaky stuff. I know Doc mentioned on the cafe a while ago that he and Forte worked on the riffle cull for a bit but ultimately thought that it took too many shuffles to cull and stack the key cards. They stopped working on it for that reason so I am slightly skeptical that it was a riffle cull in the video, though it is certainly not beyond his skill... that man can do anything. My gut intuition from watching the video is that he probably used some variation of a stacked deck, false shuffles and a location.

Asdff1818 wrote:
I will get it, it is probably very good, I hear about it everywhere, and I have researched about it, so I know a little bit about it.


To be honest, depending on your expectations, you might be disappointed. Most people (and I'm not saying you) get it after hearing high praise about it and find it a bore, the technical language hard to digest, the moves difficult and with no obvious application. The truth is that there are no secret techniques, no hidden principles that will make you invincible overnight, but it will help you develop attributes that will make you better. Attributes like knowing and understanding the pressures involved in a shift, the timing and rhythm to different techniques, Ross Bertram used to say that Erdnase teaches your hands to work together.

Asdff1818 wrote:
I didn't know about the DVD either, and come the Wesley James one is so bad? I think I've read that somewhere else, but why?


Because Wesley James cannot do almost anything in the book properly. In alot of cases, he'll completely disregard a technique taught in the book, and substitute it for one of his own, which is frankly, inferior. He barely stumbles through simple techniques, his performances of effects are littered with instances of pauses, minute long silences while he performs a mental calculation, his shifts are accompanied by rapid sudden jerks and inappropriate rhythms,... and on and on. He doesn't show any understanding or respect for much of the material. Compare his SWE shift to let's say, Chris Kenner's, and you'll see a marked difference.

Charlier cut from Wesley James' DVD's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSH96G ... re=related

Denis Behr's parody video (he's not exaggerating on how bad the DVD's are)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHw57ulY ... re=related

Asdff1818 wrote:
Isn't the Stevens Riffle Cull a false cull? I've read something like that somewhere. If so, is there any real riffle shuffle cull?


I don't really know what you mean by false cull, but I'll describe what the Steven's Cull does. Let's say you have four key cards, scattered randomly throughout the deck. You don't know what positions they are in. You cut the deck, do a few riffle shuffles (theoretically you cull one desired cards per shuffle), and viola, the four cards are on top of the deck. It's a way to spot, block off, and cut to the desired card, and shuffle so that they end up on top. It's a very very very difficult technique.

Asdff1818 wrote:
Who are these guys?


David Ben is Ross Bertram's sole protege. He is one of the sleight of hand giants of our time, he's an incredible technician, a great performer, and very very knowledgeable. He doesn't tip much, but he's very well respected and widely regarded as a creative genius.

Ben and Shane are two local magicians in Toronto. Shane has probably the best SWE shift in the world. Chris Kenner invited Shane into his home after seeing it. Ben is very well educated in magic, and an up and coming figure in the magic scene (published in MAGIC magazine awhile back), very well connected.

This is the Stevens cull thread on Genii I was talking about:
http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... d=1#import
David Ben contributes significantly to it, so I'd pay attention to what he says. The Genii forums revamped a few years back, so all the usernames are gone, but you can easily guess who's David.

Asdff1818 wrote:
Thank You!!!!


You're welcome. Let me know if this helps any.

Cheers
Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Riffle Cull
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 18
porcupine wrote:
Yeah, it's unfortunate that us mere mortals will probably just have to keep guessing at Forte's methods, He can do some freaky stuff. I know Doc mentioned on the cafe a while ago that he and Forte worked on the riffle cull for a bit but ultimately thought that it took too many shuffles to cull and stack the key cards. They stopped working on it for that reason so I am slightly skeptical that it was a riffle cull in the video, though it is certainly not beyond his skill... that man can do anything. My gut intuition from watching the video is that he probably used some variation of a stacked deck, false shuffles and a location.
That's true, he is probably the guy that can handle a deck of cards the best, alive, today. But why can`t he have used a stevens cull?

porcupine wrote:
To be honest, depending on your expectations, you might be disappointed. Most people (and I'm not saying you) get it after hearing high praise about it and find it a bore, the technical language hard to digest, the moves difficult and with no obvious application. The truth is that there are no secret techniques, no hidden principles that will make you invincible overnight, but it will help you develop attributes that will make you better. Attributes like knowing and understanding the pressures involved in a shift, the timing and rhythm to different techniques, Ross Bertram used to say that Erdnase teaches your hands to work together.
Thank you, I heard it was complicated, and now you're confirming it, that's why I wanted to get a DVD covering it, from what you said, I think that I should probably get the Ackerman's one, haha :P.

porcupine wrote:
Because Wesley James cannot do almost anything in the book properly. In alot of cases, he'll completely disregard a technique taught in the book, and substitute it for one of his own, which is frankly, inferior. He barely stumbles through simple techniques, his performances of effects are littered with instances of pauses, minute long silences while he performs a mental calculation, his shifts are accompanied by rapid sudden jerks and inappropriate rhythms,... and on and on. He doesn't show any understanding or respect for much of the material. Compare his SWE shift to let's say, Chris Kenner's, and you'll see a marked difference.
I wonder why he went for such a challenge if he isn`t able to do it, his reputation would just go down.

porcupine wrote:
Charlier cut from Wesley James' DVD's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSH96G ... re=related

Denis Behr's parody video (he's not exaggerating on how bad the DVD's are)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHw57ulY ... re=related

Lol, :lol: maybe he should stick with the old way of doing it :P.

porcupine wrote:
I don't really know what you mean by false cull, but I'll describe what the Steven's Cull does. Let's say you have four key cards, scattered randomly throughout the deck. You don't know what positions they are in. You cut the deck, do a few riffle shuffles (theoretically you cull one desired cards per shuffle), and viola, the four cards are on top of the deck. It's a way to spot, block off, and cut to the desired card, and shuffle so that they end up on top. It's a very very very difficult technique.
Oh, I meant that I thought that you already kind of knew where the cards were, and estimated, or something like that, when their are not actually completely lost, but from what you wrote, it is lost/real.

porcupine wrote:
David Ben is Ross Bertram's sole protege. He is one of the sleight of hand giants of our time, he's an incredible technician, a great performer, and very very knowledgeable. He doesn't tip much, but he's very well respected and widely regarded as a creative genius.

Ben and Shane are two local magicians in Toronto. Shane has probably the best SWE shift in the world. Chris Kenner invited Shane into his home after seeing it. Ben is very well educated in magic, and an up and coming figure in the magic scene (published in MAGIC magazine awhile back), very well connected.
Very cool to know that these people live less than 1/2 an hour from me, :). I don't need much help right now, but when I do, I know who to ask, thank you.

porcupine wrote:
This is the Stevens cull thread on Genii I was talking about:
http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... d=1#import
David Ben contributes significantly to it, so I'd pay attention to what he says. The Genii forums revamped a few years back, so all the usernames are gone, but you can easily guess who's David.
I wasn`t able to read all of this, because it is late here, and I have to go to sleep, but I`ll read it another day.

porcupine wrote:
You're welcome. Let me know if this helps any.
Off course it help! :)
Thanks again!


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