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 Post subject: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:14 pm 
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Hi,
I now know a lot of moves from Erdnase, and stuff like that. But usually, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte to someone (except for magicians), I get a much bigger reaction, than when I do something like a bottom or center deal demonstration, which are obviously much harder. I get about the same reaction, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte, and triumph. So how can I use the moves that I know, for better tricks? Is there any DVD that that teaches more effective tricks than for example 2 card monte, using the moves that I know.
And what level in card manipulation would you say that I am at? Beginner? Intermidiate? I know most of the Erdnase stuff, and a few other things, but mostly Erdnase (but some of the things in Erdnase, I prefered taking the modified version like bottom dealing, I don't use his grip, or anybody that knows anything about Erdnase, and his grip/bottom deal, will know what I am doing).

So, Is there a DVD that teaches better tricks, using the moves that I already know? Or what are the name of some?
And what level do you think that I am at?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
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Location: Brooklyn-"Fuhgedaboudit!"
I don't think it's very easy to get reactions from gambling demonstrations. Usually the best tricks are the simple ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:43 pm 
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duds wrote:
I don't think it's very easy to get reactions from gambling demonstrations. Usually the best tricks are the simple ones.
I didn't mean gambling demonstrations, I just meant harder tricks that would get more reaction than the simple ones.
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:59 pm 
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TheTMagic wrote:
Hi,
I now know a lot of moves from Erdnase, and stuff like that. But usually, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte to someone (except for magicians), I get a much bigger reaction, than when I do something like a bottom or center deal demonstration, which are obviously much harder. I get about the same reaction, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte, and triumph. So how can I use the moves that I know, for better tricks? Is there any DVD that that teaches more effective tricks than for example 2 card monte, using the moves that I know.
And what level in card manipulation would you say that I am at? Beginner? Intermidiate? I know most of the Erdnase stuff, and a few other things, but mostly Erdnase (but some of the things in Erdnase, I prefered taking the modified version like bottom dealing, I don't use his grip, or anybody that knows anything about Erdnase, and his grip/bottom deal, will know what I am doing).

So, Is there a DVD that teaches better tricks, using the moves that I already know? Or what are the name of some?
And what level do you think that I am at?

Thank you.

I was referring to this. I find that effects that are easy for me (whether because I have practiced it immensely, or because it's...well...easy) get much better reactions.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Joined: 02 Jun 2010
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duds wrote:
TheTMagic wrote:
Hi,
I now know a lot of moves from Erdnase, and stuff like that. But usually, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte to someone (except for magicians), I get a much bigger reaction, than when I do something like a bottom or center deal demonstration, which are obviously much harder. I get about the same reaction, when I do a simple trick like 2 card monte, and triumph. So how can I use the moves that I know, for better tricks? Is there any DVD that that teaches more effective tricks than for example 2 card monte, using the moves that I know.
And what level in card manipulation would you say that I am at? Beginner? Intermidiate? I know most of the Erdnase stuff, and a few other things, but mostly Erdnase (but some of the things in Erdnase, I prefered taking the modified version like bottom dealing, I don't use his grip, or anybody that knows anything about Erdnase, and his grip/bottom deal, will know what I am doing).

So, Is there a DVD that teaches better tricks, using the moves that I already know? Or what are the name of some?
And what level do you think that I am at?

Thank you.

I was referring to this. I find that effects that are easy for me (whether because I have practiced it immensely, or because it's...well...easy) get much better reactions.
Thank you, I agree with you about gambling demonstrations getting less reactions. But what are some ways to apply what I know (or some DVDs that teach better tricks using the harder moves) to do even better tricks than the simple and good ones?
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Joined: 22 Sep 2009
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Location: Over there
It's never the methods you use, it's the presentation. Some of my inherently strongest tricks I know I down play. But the simple tricks I do like card forces I play up. Use the technically difficult moves you know to be more magical.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:45 pm 
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mchkeegan wrote:
It's never the methods you use, it's the presentation. Some of my inherently strongest tricks I know I down play. But the simple tricks I do like card forces I play up. Use the technically difficult moves you know to be more magical.
That is very true, but what I am saying, is that I want to apply the difficult moves in a magic trick that requires them, and I want that trick to be stronger than the simpler tricks. Because I learned so many new things, and now I want to apply them, and apply them to instead of simple tricks that I could do without any of them, I want tricks that require those moves, and they are even more effective than the simple ones.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:49 pm 
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I posted this topic in The Magic Cafe Forum also, http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=2&0 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Your audience doesn't care about the methods or how hard things are for you to accomplish. The reason the easier things get better reactions is because you're better at them and the audience are actually fooled. If they can see that something is harder, than it's not magic for them. The easier tricks have methods that are better disguised. If you're using a Bottom Deal in a routine and the audience sees it happening, they're not going to be impressed at all, because they don't have the appreciation of skill that magicians would have.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:40 pm 
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exodus wrote:
Your audience doesn't care about the methods or how hard things are for you to accomplish. The reason the easier things get better reactions is because you're better at them and the audience are actually fooled. If they can see that something is harder, than it's not magic for them. The easier tricks have methods that are better disguised. If you're using a Bottom Deal in a routine and the audience sees it happening, they're not going to be impressed at all, because they don't have the appreciation of skill that magicians would have.
I know that they don't care, but even if they don't see my bottom deal,which they don't (I hope) they are more impressed by a simple trick like like two card monte, because the card actually changed in the hand. But with the bottom, off course they are impressed, but for them it is more magical for two cards to unexpectedly change in their hand than getting 4 aces (even though they are also impressed by that), so what are some harder tricks, that that will get the audience more impressed than the simple tricks.
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:19 am 
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TheTMagic wrote:
... they are more impressed by a simple trick like like two card monte, because the card actually changed in the hand.


I think you just answered your own question. You need to involve the spectator on an emotional level. Letting the magic happen in their own hands is a very powerful effect. Much more powerful than passively watching you control cards for your own amusement.

Erdnase is not a magic book. It wasn't written to entertain audiences, but rather to educate card players.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:43 am 
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Sounds like you are kind of a move monkey. That's not a bad thing IMO. Learning moves that are difficult for me is part of what keeps me interested. I think it is great that you have an interest in Erdnase, it will serve you well in the long run. With that said, much of the material is geared towards gambling(as Dave said) and if you will "table" magic. For most of us these days we perform magic that's "in the hands." There are many shifts, and a a few transformations that are applicable but tabled blind riffles and cuts? 2nd deals and bottom deals? And how many of us really need to cull shuffle?

My suggestion for a guy who likes sleights is figure out the most common sleights you use in your magic and learn fancier, more deceptive, and yes more difficult versions of those sleights. This way you can keep challenging yourself with difficult moves and once those moves are mastered you can add them to the effects you already know get a good reaction. I'd start with the DL. There are a million varieties. Some meant to be fancy, others to look more natural, and some one handed. Once you find one you like stick with it to perfection. Find a good top card control, find a good bottom card control. Find a good in the hands false riffle shuffle and a few good false cuts. Not that Erdnase doesn't give us insight to this there is a lot of stuff that has come out in the last 100 years that is a bit better for a modern closeup magician. And while you are learning all this new stuff don't stop studying your Erdnase! Though I personally find it to be of historical and academic interest than practical it is still completely worth the effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:31 pm 
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DaveV wrote:
TheTMagic wrote:
... they are more impressed by a simple trick like like two card monte, because the card actually changed in the hand.


I think you just answered your own question. You need to involve the spectator on an emotional level. Letting the magic happen in their own hands is a very powerful effect. Much more powerful than passively watching you control cards for your own amusement.
That's true, I will try to do let the spectator do more things, instead of just me.

DaveV wrote:
Erdnase is not a magic book. It wasn't written to entertain audiences, but rather to educate card players
That is mostly true, but there are some magic tricks taught in Erdnase.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Yes there are. It's been a topic of debate for many years that the "magic" portion was added possibly to help the sales of the book. Some believe the writing style suggests that it was written by someone other than the one who wrote the rest of the book (whoever that might be. We may never know for certain).

Still, I wouldn't consider Erdnase a magic textbook. It's value lies elsewhere in the pages.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:37 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Sounds like you are kind of a move monkey. That's not a bad thing IMO.
What does that mean? Haha.
eostresh wrote:
Learning moves that are difficult for me is part of what keeps me interested. I think it is great that you have an interest in Erdnase, it will serve you well in the long run.
How will it benefit me? If I can't apply most of the moves.

eostresh wrote:
My suggestion for a guy who likes sleights is figure out the most common sleights you use in your magic and learn fancier, more deceptive, and yes more difficult versions of those sleights. This way you can keep challenging yourself with difficult moves and once those moves are mastered you can add them to the effects you already know get a good reaction. I'd start with the DL. There are a million varieties. Some meant to be fancy, others to look more natural, and some one handed. Once you find one you like stick with it to perfection. Find a good top card control, find a good bottom card control. Find a good in the hands false riffle shuffle and a few good false cuts. Not that Erdnase doesn't give us insight to this there is a lot of stuff that has come out in the last 100 years that is a bit better for a modern closeup magician. And while you are learning all this new stuff don't stop studying your Erdnase! Though I personally find it to be of historical and academic interest than practical it is still completely worth the effort.
Thank you, I will apply all of your advices, but why is worth the effort? When will I use everything that I learned? (Except for the false cuts/shuffles, and a few others).

Thank you.


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