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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:44 pm 
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DaveV wrote:
Yes there are. It's been a topic of debate for many years that the "magic" portion was added possibly to help the sales of the book. Some believe the writing style suggests that it was written by someone other than the one who wrote the rest of the book (whoever that might be. We may never know for certain).
That is interesting, I never knew about that. And it makes sense that it was written by someone else, because from what I know (which isn't a lot, :P), Erdnase was really, an actual cheater, so why would he show his skill to others in magic tricks?


DaveV wrote:
Still, I wouldn't consider Erdnase a magic textbook. It's value lies elsewhere in the pages).

I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:12 am 
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TheTMagic wrote:
Thank you, I will apply all of your advices, but why is worth the effort? When will I use everything that I learned? (Except for the false cuts/shuffles, and a few others).

Thank you.


Well here is how I heard it best explained. Actually I think it was someone on this very forum who mentioned it just a week or so ago. Erdnase teaches you handle a deck of cards. When you go through it you will discover different grips for holding a deck and how those grips will effect how the cards react. Not sure how to explain it really. When I read through it and am looking at a patricular move I try to think about the mechanics of the grip and what else can be achieved from that position.
Also, just a general guide to what is really usefull to the magician. The crimps, jogs, shifts, and palms. Other moves may seem particular to table magic or gambling demos but these will serve you well regardless of your personal style and interests. As for personal favorites check out the Diagonal Palm shift and look into the One Handed Transformation No. 1. A lot of people like the idea of the S.W.E. shift but about the only person I've seen do that justice is Jamy Ian Swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:09 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Well here is how I heard it best explained. Actually I think it was someone on this very forum who mentioned it just a week or so ago. Erdnase teaches you handle a deck of cards. When you go through it you will discover different grips for holding a deck and how those grips will effect how the cards react. Not sure how to explain it really. When I read through it and am looking at a patricular move I try to think about the mechanics of the grip and what else can be achieved from that position.
So you are basically saying that it will make me more confortable with cards, and that from a grip that I learn there, maybe I can come up with different move?
eostresh wrote:
Also, just a general guide to what is really usefull to the magician. The crimps, jogs, shifts, and palms. Other moves may seem particular to table magic or gambling demos but these will serve you well regardless of your personal style and interests. As for personal favorites check out the Diagonal Palm shift and look into the One Handed Transformation No. 1. A lot of people like the idea of the S.W.E. shift but about the only person I've seen do that justice is Jamy Ian Swiss.
To tell you the truth, most of the 50-60 moves that I know (if you saw the other forum) are mostly; crimps, jogs, shifts, and palms, except for a few stacking techniques, and a few other moves, but a lot of them (like some of the culling techniques), I just found that would be useless, unless you were actually playing a game (hardly even useful for gambling demos).
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:34 pm 
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One thing that I want to point out, on the Cafe, you mentioned that you've mastered many of the moves after seeing the Ackerman video set. I sincerely hope that you're putting the proper practice into the move before performing them in public.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:04 pm 
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exodus wrote:
One thing that I want to point out, on the Cafe, you mentioned that you've mastered many of the moves after seeing the Ackerman video set. I sincerely hope that you're putting the proper practice into the move before performing them in public.
A couple hundred times. Is that enough? IMO, they are good, but do you think that I have practised enough?
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:08 pm 
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TheTMagic wrote:
exodus wrote:
One thing that I want to point out, on the Cafe, you mentioned that you've mastered many of the moves after seeing the Ackerman video set. I sincerely hope that you're putting the proper practice into the move before performing them in public.
A couple hundred times. Is that enough? IMO, they are good, but do you think that I have practised enough?
Thank you.

We can't really say without seeing you perform them but it seems kind of light to me. Some people have more natural ability than others but ingraining a tricky move into your muscle memory takes more than just repetitions....it takes time. The clip shift is a good example. Most people can get the basics down in a month and will be able to use it as an "off beat" move. That covers most of its applications as a "sleight" because, even people who really burn you hands will relax a bit when your hands are away from each other. For those using it as a "change," or transformation,you really need to be good with that move because in such an application you draw attention to the deck. From what I have read on the D&D forums most of the guys good enough to do the clip shift shake change, the change you see advertised in all the promos, have been working on the move for about a year. That is kind of an extreme example as it is generally regarded as one of the hardest sleights in card magic but you get the idea. Aaron fisher has some good podcasts on this topic. I'll try to get the links and post them.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Go here..
http://www.aaronfishermagic.com/watch.htm

Look to the side bar on the right. Scroll down past the podcasts and you will see some articles. He has several called "Thoughts on Practice." I recomend you read these.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, I didn't have time, I was up until 3:00A.M. doing work.

Yesterday, the only free time that I had, I went to the cafe, half
of the question got deleted, I asked Steve Brooks why, and
them my account was permanently banned. I sent him an email asking why, but he wouldn't reply. Any ideas why? I have no idea.

I get what you mean. I can't look at it now, since I am on my phone.

In the cafe, some people mentioned a few names of people that teach superior tricks, that use more sleights, and etc, but I only remember 2 of them; Lennart Green, and Darwin Ortiz. What are some other ones?
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:35 pm 
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TheTMagic wrote:
In the cafe, some people mentioned a few names of people that teach superior tricks, that use more sleights, and etc, but I only remember 2 of them; Lennart Green, and Darwin Ortiz. What are some other ones?


You mean ungimmicked deck tricks relying solely on sleights? Ernest Earick, Paul Gordon, Harry Lorayne, Bill Goodwin, The Bucks, Bannon, Malone, Jerry Sadowitz, Roy Walton, Peter Duffie, etc. The list is endless. As per "superior tricks" - that's up to your presentation, not the trick.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:35 am 
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akirafist wrote:
TheTMagic wrote:
In the cafe, some people mentioned a few names of people that teach superior tricks, that use more sleights, and etc, but I only remember 2 of them; Lennart Green, and Darwin Ortiz. What are some other ones?


You mean ungimmicked deck tricks relying solely on sleights? Ernest Earick, Paul Gordon, Harry Lorayne, Bill Goodwin, The Bucks, Bannon, Malone, Jerry Sadowitz, Roy Walton, Peter Duffie, etc. The list is endless. As per "superior tricks" - that's up to your presentation, not the trick.

This plus Lee Asher and Aaron Fisher have some good stuff. In fact I think their stuff might be a better start into the tougher stuff. Some of the names on the above list might be a bit over your head...(I certainly don't mean to offend. I'm just taking a guess as to your level based on what you have said).


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:56 pm 
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akirafist wrote:
You mean ungimmicked deck tricks relying solely on sleights?
Yes, exactly.
akirafist wrote:
Ernest Earick, Paul Gordon, Harry Lorayne, Bill Goodwin, The Bucks, Bannon, Malone, Jerry Sadowitz, Roy Walton, Peter Duffie, etc. The list is endless.
I have started researching, I will come up with a list of DVDs that I might buy, and hopefully, you guys can help me narrow it down. While I was searching about Paul Gordon, I found your review on his "Live In Action" DVD, it is great, and funny, :).
akirafist wrote:
As per "superior tricks" - that's up to your presentation, not the trick.
But if the presentation is the same level in all of them. Whose tricks would you recommend the most?
And by the way, I want the tricks to have a good effect on laymen, but also make people that know about card magic (or even magicians), impressed. Would you add or remove any names now?
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:02 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
akirafist wrote:
You mean ungimmicked deck tricks relying solely on sleights? Ernest Earick, Paul Gordon, Harry Lorayne, Bill Goodwin, The Bucks, Bannon, Malone, Jerry Sadowitz, Roy Walton, Peter Duffie, etc. The list is endless. As per "superior tricks" - that's up to your presentation, not the trick.

This plus Lee Asher and Aaron Fisher have some good stuff. In fact I think their stuff might be a better start into the tougher stuff. Some of the names on the above list might be a bit over your head...(I certainly don't mean to offend. I'm just taking a guess as to your level based on what you have said).
I am willing to practise a lot, so I will also try to find things from akirafist's list, but I will also try to find things about Lee Asher and Aaron Fisher. But maybe it would be better to go to the tougher stuff, because then everything else would be easier, that's how it works for me, but again, maybe not. I have the same questions that I asked akirafist, to you.
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Here are some products that I thought seemed good, from the names that you said:

Bill Malone – Here I go again.
Paul Gordon – Live In Action
Paul Gordon – Card Startlers
Bill Goodwin – Reflection
Aaron Fisher – Search and Destroy
Aaron Fisher – Bicycle Thief
Paul Wilson And Lee Asher – Hit the Road
Would you add any? Would you remove any? Which ones would you recommend most? One that I can apply the sleights that I already know how to do. One that would not only have a good effect on laymen, but also impress, or confuse people that know about card magic.
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:19 am 
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I have heard, from Adam I think, that Bicycle Thief is a gimmick effect. I'm not sure that is what you are after? Hit the Road is excellent and Search and Destroy is good,though, I would recommend it with the book, "The Paper Engine." Reflections has been getting good reviews but I don't have it yet(still on my wishlist). As for the Paul Gordon stuff....I'll defer to Akira.


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 Post subject: Re: Harder and effective tricks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:01 am 
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Bicycle Thief does indeed require gimmicks.

If you are geeting Bill Malone, get the On the loose set.

Some of the card magic you are talking about is on there. Malones Invisible Palm Aces is one of the most amazing and difficult tricks I have ever tried to learn. With particular card skills in hand already that chore of a trick could be a lot simpler to learn.


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