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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:02 am 
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To expand on tbwendt's response to lawboy. Remember when the bible was written and the scientific knowledge held during those times. To the Jewish culture everything in the world exists because God is constantly creating this world in every moment. So when nature (God's creation) is changed (as magic appears to do, we set aside all natural laws when we perform effects) we MUST be doing the work of Satan. This is how their logic flows. Well fundamentalist believers still see it this way. When you run up against thoughts like this we have to rely on the old saying, "never get into a battle of wits with someone who is half armed." Logic will not replace faith and belief.

Paddy


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:20 am 
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I've had this idea for a while that human behaviour has two different facets: logic and emotion. It probably works on a scale where logic is at one end, emotion is at the other, and between the two is a mixture. Science (well, mathematics) would be completely over to the logic end of the, while (fundamentalist) religion would probably be right at the other.

The problem is that neither can be expressed in terms of the other, because they require different thought processes. Trying to use logic in an emotional-based situation ("If we had to choose, I'd kill my younger son because we've expended less effort in raising him thus far.") is as bad as using emotion in a logic-based one ("Well, I think the answer's 7 because it just looks right.").

So both logic and emotion have their places, depending on what the situation calls for. The problem arises when one party thinks that a situation is logical and the other thinks it's emotional, as is the case in this thread. No-one's going to win fairly because neither side can express their case in terms the other can understand: who's going to win will be whoever can cause the other to lose all sanity first, which is always the emotionally-based party.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:45 am 
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Paddy has been giving some very solid advice. I'm actually archiving this to quote it later if I need to.

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Wow, I didn't expect so much great advice from everyone...
I do agree I might have to vacation..
The problem I am also facing is, lets say I do move out at 18, and do magic, I know for sure that my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that, neither do I want to give up my dream of being a magician... I don't like dream of being the next Chris Angel or David Blaine. But just to perform cause I LOVE performing.
My dad though has always hated what I did, I wanted to be a artist, he said it was crap and no money in that, I said a cartoonist, he said the same, I said draw comics or write he said that was a stupid job. And now its like that for Magicm except he is putting religion in it... I have mixed feelings cause I know I should just give it up for now... Yet I'm just hoping that someone can help me find a way so i won't have to? Its just foolish wishing....


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Let me just chip in one more time and keep this in mind as you read this. I'm not telling you to hate your dad or even defy your dad(at least until you are out on your own) but I might offer an observation that might help you understand it. You are at at age where fathers and sons tend to quarrel. I'm not saying this is your dad but in general there are many fathers who pin their hopes on their sons. Fathers who dreamt about becoming athletes push their kids in sports, fathers who never had the chance to go to colledge push their kids to be doctors and lawyers ect. It's possible your problems have less to do with what he doesn't want you to do and more to do with what he wants you to become. He may subconsciously have an unfulfilled dream and he wants to live it vicariously through you. Perhaps his religion is just an excuse to push you away from what he doesn't want you to do and towards what he does want from you. I'm not saying this is at the heart of your situation (you would need a trained, certified, family counselor to get to the real root of your troubles) but I am saying that that dynamic is a common one between fathers and sons. Honestly as I review what you have said it sound to me as if you and your father could use a family counselor. Their are plenty of faith based counselors out there as well.

@lawboy-Interesting points and I don't have the time to answer in detail but in short there is a lot of work on emotions and logic, how they compliment each other, and how they sabotage each other. In short, emotions evolved to give us "logical" responses to the world we know. The problem is those responses were logical millions of years ago. We have evolved much more complicated brains, cultures, and technologies since then but our Limbic system(the part of our brain that controls emotion) has changed very little.

ex. Jealousy: Very logical response in evolutionary terms. You want to be sure that the children you raise are yours and not Thag's. So you thump Thag on the head with a rock every time he winks at Weena the cave babe. In modern times we have technology that makes those thumpings more lethal (guns) and technology to check for paternity(DNA tests) so Jealousy has the very real potential to become maladaptive. So if you shoot Billy Bob in the head when he makes eyes at Yolanda the trailer trash queen you spend the rest of your live in jail where you are physically restrained from making babies or properly raising the ones you have.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:52 pm 
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EllusionistBrothers wrote:
Wow, I didn't expect so much great advice from everyone...
I do agree I might have to vacation..
The problem I am also facing is, lets say I do move out at 18, and do magic, I know for sure that my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that, neither do I want to give up my dream of being a magician... I don't like dream of being the next Chris Angel or David Blaine. But just to perform cause I LOVE performing.
My dad though has always hated what I did, I wanted to be a artist, he said it was crap and no money in that, I said a cartoonist, he said the same, I said draw comics or write he said that was a stupid job. And now its like that for Magicm except he is putting religion in it... I have mixed feelings cause I know I should just give it up for now... Yet I'm just hoping that someone can help me find a way so i won't have to? Its just foolish wishing....


Sounds like your dad won't be happy until you get " a real man's job" and start working in a mill somewhere.

Maybe tell him you have taken his advice and your ambition now is to work in a coal mine for the rest of your life, breath in all that crap and be dead by the age of 30. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 pm 
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
eostresh wrote:
Let me just chip in one more time and keep this in mind as you read this. I'm not telling you to hate your dad or even defy your dad(at least until you are out on your own) but I might offer an observation that might help you understand it. You are at at age where fathers and sons tend to quarrel. I'm not saying this is your dad but in general there are many fathers who pin their hopes on their sons. Fathers who dreamt about becoming athletes push their kids in sports, fathers who never had the chance to go to colledge push their kids to be doctors and lawyers ect. It's possible your problems have less to do with what he doesn't want you to do and more to do with what he wants you to become. He may subconsciously have an unfulfilled dream and he wants to live it vicariously through you. Perhaps his religion is just an excuse to push you away from what he doesn't want you to do and towards what he does want from you. I'm not saying this is at the heart of your situation (you would need a trained, certified, family counselor to get to the real root of your troubles) but I am saying that that dynamic is a common one between fathers and sons. Honestly as I review what you have said it sound to me as if you and your father could use a family counselor. Their are plenty of faith based counselors out there as well.

@lawboy-Interesting points and I don't have the time to answer in detail but in short there is a lot of work on emotions and logic, how they compliment each other, and how they sabotage each other. In short, emotions evolved to give us "logical" responses to the world we know. The problem is those responses were logical millions of years ago. We have evolved much more complicated brains, cultures, and technologies since then but our Limbic system(the part of our brain that controls emotion) has changed very little.

ex. Jealousy: Very logical response in evolutionary terms. You want to be sure that the children you raise are yours and not Thag's. So you thump Thag on the head with a rock every time he winks at Weena the cave babe. In modern times we have technology that makes those thumpings more lethal (guns) and technology to check for paternity(DNA tests) so Jealousy has the very real potential to become maladaptive. So if you shoot Billy Bob in the head when he makes eyes at Yolanda the trailer trash queen you spend the rest of your live in jail where you are physically restrained from making babies or properly raising the ones you have.


One of the best posts I've read on these forums in going on 7 years.

-JT


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:45 pm 
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EllusionistBrothers wrote:
Wow, I didn't expect so much great advice from everyone...
I do agree I might have to vacation..
The problem I am also facing is, lets say I do move out at 18, and do magic, I know for sure that my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that, neither do I want to give up my dream of being a magician... I don't like dream of being the next Chris Angel or David Blaine. But just to perform cause I LOVE performing.
My dad though has always hated what I did, I wanted to be a artist, he said it was crap and no money in that, I said a cartoonist, he said the same, I said draw comics or write he said that was a stupid job. And now its like that for Magicm except he is putting religion in it... I have mixed feelings cause I know I should just give it up for now... Yet I'm just hoping that someone can help me find a way so i won't have to? Its just foolish wishing....

Well it looks like you really don't want advice. Every time someone comes up with something you fall back on the same theme
; i.e. "my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that" Sorry if you don't want to listen you will never be free.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Joined: 07 Sep 2010
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paddy wrote:
EllusionistBrothers wrote:
Wow, I didn't expect so much great advice from everyone...
I do agree I might have to vacation..
The problem I am also facing is, lets say I do move out at 18, and do magic, I know for sure that my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that, neither do I want to give up my dream of being a magician... I don't like dream of being the next Chris Angel or David Blaine. But just to perform cause I LOVE performing.
My dad though has always hated what I did, I wanted to be a artist, he said it was crap and no money in that, I said a cartoonist, he said the same, I said draw comics or write he said that was a stupid job. And now its like that for Magicm except he is putting religion in it... I have mixed feelings cause I know I should just give it up for now... Yet I'm just hoping that someone can help me find a way so i won't have to? Its just foolish wishing....

Well it looks like you really don't want advice. Every time someone comes up with something you fall back on the same theme
; i.e. "my dad will just hate me, and like... I don't want that" Sorry if you don't want to listen you will never be free.


Yeah I know... I was hoping someone can help find a way out of it. I know I have to forget magic for a while. And if I want magic for my future I will have to put up with my dad's crap... Its just SO hard to give up magic, in a matter of days, especially when its a everyday thing. And to say "When I am out of the house I will be free" is easy, but when really its still a concern to be hated by your own father...


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:02 am 
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Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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You can still practice magic like people used to practice religion, in secret. Practice away from the house. You might not be able to buy effects, but that doesn't keep you from creating effects of your own based off of effects that you see on the internet. How is it that he lets you get on the computer, cause there are far worse things on it than doing magic.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:03 am 
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As much as you don't want to hear it...

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise— "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:55 pm 
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EllusionistBrothers wrote
Quote:
Yeah I know... I was hoping someone can help find a way out of it. I know I have to forget magic for a while. And if I want magic for my future I will have to put up with my dad's crap... Its just SO hard to give up magic, in a matter of days, especially when its a everyday thing. And to say "When I am out of the house I will be free" is easy, but when really its still a concern to be hated by your own father...

Hey we pick our friends but we can't pick our relatives so if he is going to hate you for a stupid reason, who cares. Do you really want to be close to someone like that? It's his loss and YOUR LIFE.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:49 pm 
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I doubt he'd "hate" you for living your life the way you want to, he may not approve, but he'll either get over it or lose a big part of his life.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Suck it up...you live under his roof/rules...only 2 years till you can walk-out.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiting magic? What should I do?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:05 pm 
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EllusionistBrotehrs wrote:
Hey everyone, I just really need advice....
My dad HATES MAGIC, with a passion and he caught me making a video of a card trick, and I got REALLY busted. Btw, I'm 16, and yeah I'm probably to old to be like... controlled like that, but he really got crazy, and threatened to kick me out the house if I don't stop. He says the bible doesn't allow magic, but I did my studies and creating illusions, and sleight of hand is nothing wrong. But he will not even listen to one word, he is closed minded.
I went to all my friends, and my best friend didn't help much, she really just says "his house his rules, you have no say" witch I find stupid, because it doesn't make sense to be in prison, in your own house... And she never really liked my magic, I could do the most coolest trick, and she doesn't even care or say thats cool, she just point something out that doesn't even relate to the trick, like my shirt or bed spreads. So I really don't have support from my friends and family, only my little bro who is some what interested and understands... But he is still little, he will do what our dad says. I am thinking of quiting magic completely. I don't want to at ALL, I love doing magic, getting people to laugh, cry, and run away with their shirts off. And I am pretty good too... But lets say I leave at 18, and be a magician, what will happen when I visit? My dad calling me satan and not talking to me... I don't know what to do.... What should I do? :(


I'm sorry you have to go through this...I could sit and tell you stories all day about how controlling my parents were. I lived at home up till 3 months ago. I had gotten so tired of being told "If you want to do things your way, then you just need to get out", that I finally said "Fine...I'm gone". When I said this, it took my family by surprise....he thought I was bluffing, so he said "Fine...when can you be out then?" and I responded with "In a couple days". His jaw hit the floor. I left and we haven't really spoken much since...Main point is...sometimes you just have to stand up for YOURSELF as an individual and make your parents understand that they can't live your life for you. My family never really supported my magic...nor anything else for that matter....and I think that's why I became such a perfectionist and have all the achievements I've accomplished. Many parents like to exhibit "psychological control" of their kids...I went through it, and so did my sisters. There comes a point when you realize that they can't really follow through with most of the threats they've thrown at you due to legality issues....it's just means of control. I was controlled till I was 22...don't take that path...I highly discourage it. Things have gotten so much better in my life since I set my foot down and stood up for myself and my own life. Even my friends have told me that I've become a completely new person.

you're 16, I'm 22...they can't really kick you out and expect you to leave. You're fine. all they can do is ground you, and at your age, even that is limited. You and I have a lot in common concerning our parental relationships. Don't hesitate to Message me if you want to talk about it some more.


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