Ooh, you just reminded me, study the teachings of martial arts. The fluid movements are what Slydini would call "better than natural". There's a video called the Tai Chi Coin Vanish that discusses how the movements of some of the more "zen" martial arts relate to card and coin magic. Very smart stuff.

Not sure about anyone else but I got a LOT of great info from this thread.

Awesome stuff.

-JT

I was just thinking the same thing Miniserb. Thanks for the info guys!

OH, you KNOW it! 'Would bet many have.

When I first started coin magic i watched ITBTWC. I've been practicing alot. after 2 YEARS of practicing the way he teaches, I got caught at EVERY coin trick I performed. No move looked deceptive. After I got Roth's and Stone's metarial, I practiced them intensively. after 2 WEEKS I could perform most of Stone's material and it fooled EVERYONE. I changed my Retention pass from Jay's to Stone's. While everyone caught me doing Jay's, Stone's completely fooled them. IMO Roth teached the fundumentals and essentials better, while Stone's routines are clever and entertaining. I'm extremely satisfied with Stone's and Roth's material, and I think that working on them simultaniuasly is a good way to advance in coin magic. Saddly I think that ITBTWC was one of my poorest purchases.

I've uploaded about half a year ago a video of me performing the Retention vanish in Jay's way. I might soon upload a new vid with the newer method I use.

That's like going to a shooting range and not being able to hit the target at all with your first gun, so you blame the gun to avoid having to accept that you're not a good shot. Then, after trying for two years, you take that experience, buy another weapon and seem to be better, so you credit the new one, ignoring the fact that for TWO YEARS you were practicing and building up your skill. I understand that it's not fun to get caught doing coin magic, but you getting caught can't be blamed on Jay's teaching. I've seen Jay do the material for real people and he doesn't get caught with it. I've seen others do it and they don't get caught doing it.

You asked why I dislike Jay's DVD so much; This is my experience with that product thus this is why I dislike it. Of course I didn't "ignore" the 2 years of experience I gained practicing Jay's methods. The extreme change that came after only 2 weeks after I got the other DVDs got me thinking that if I got them 2 years before that, I would be a far better coin magicain by now, and that feeling is a annoying. Of course, these are my experience and opinion, and someone else might get along better with Jay's DVD.

Plus you have to remember, David Stone is the man. I mean, Jay is awesome, don't get me wrong but you honestly can't beat Mister Stone's coin talent...unless maybe your name is Ponta...but...yeah.

Now we have Eric Jones on the scene with Metal: Getting Started in High-Impact Coin Magic.

I recommend Metal by Eric Jones. It covers a lot of basic, and essential slights that you will need to know to be successful in coin magic. I also recommend you pick up Mirage Et Trois, Audio, and An Extension of Me all by Eric Jones.

Since my last post on this thread I've also added "Metal" by Eric Jones and the entire New York Coin Seminar series (DVD vol I through vol XIII) to my references......great and wonderful stuff....

In the beginning was more relaxed then metal. Metal was more spectacular and hard hitting, but the level and speed was so much higher. That my opinion anyways. Both compliment eachother. But i'd start with in the beginning.