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 Post subject: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:52 pm 
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Is it just me? I just started messing around with some shuffling problems from By Forces Unseen and it is like I can't stop! I could probably accomplish the same effects with a decent bottom deal and some controls but I'm really having fun with this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:53 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Is it just me? I just started messing around with some shuffling problems from By Forces Unseen and it is like I can't stop! I could probably accomplish the same effects with a decent bottom deal and some controls but I'm really having fun with this stuff.


Not really understanding what you are talking about. Is your goal to look pretty or to get the job done and win. If it is the latter, than you want to use as less moves as possible.

Example, and if we are on the same page. My deal coming up, I am picking the cards up, I pick the card up swiftly and put them like I want them, so when time comes to shuffle, I can do a sloopy do with jogs, and then set them down for the cut. I do the so well sometime, that the I have to watch out for the person getting ready to cut, will say "deal".. Popping off the bottom is cool, but those moves are extreme.. Players looking to stay "out of sight" don't even think about doing the moves, or they are very seldom used. Slight moves are the best, and the best players always are that play and the people don't know they are playing..

Didn't mean to run it, just reeling off about 40 years of experience, that's all..:)


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:54 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
Is it just me? I just started messing around with some shuffling problems from By Forces Unseen and it is like I can't stop! I could probably accomplish the same effects with a decent bottom deal and some controls but I'm really having fun with this stuff.


Not really understanding what you are talking about. Is your goal to look pretty or to get the job done and win. If it is the latter, than you want to use as less moves as possible.

Example, and if we are on the same page. My deal coming up, I am picking the cards up, I pick the card up swiftly and put them like I want them, so when time comes to shuffle, I can do a sloopy do with jogs, and then set them down for the cut. I do the so well sometime, that the I have to watch out for the person getting ready to cut, will say "deal".. Popping off the bottom is cool, but those moves are extreme.. Players looking to stay "out of sight" don't even think about doing the moves, or they are very seldom used. Slight moves are the best, and the best players always are that play and the people don't know they are playing..

Didn't mean to run it, just reeling off about 40 years of experience, that's all..:)


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:20 pm 
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cehowardrc51 wrote:
Is your goal to look pretty or to get the job done and win. If it is the latter, than you want to use as less moves as possible.


You're over analyzing his statement. Erik is just having fun with cards, and enjoying himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:32 am 
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akirafist wrote:
cehowardrc51 wrote:
Is your goal to look pretty or to get the job done and win. If it is the latter, than you want to use as less moves as possible.


You're over analyzing his statement. Erik is just having fun with cards, and enjoying himself.


Thanks akirafist, I just discovered this forum, and if you read my first replies, you can plainly see where I am coming from.

I want to THANK you again for pulling me up. Some of my comments might be better done in Private, I don't know. I really don't know how open the discussion is around here, and you can see I am a newbie in this forum. Please pull my coat and so I can get in line with the way things are talked about around here.

Thanks

To describe myself in brief, would be compared to the "lion in the jungle" and the "lion in the zoo". The Lion in the Zoo, can act like he is bad/good/the-chit, but he is going to get 3 squares even if he doesn't be bad and perform. Not so, with the Lion in the Jungle, the Lion in the Jungle has to perform and perform well or he and his family don't eat or survive.

I was like the Lion in the Jungle when it came down to playing cards. No tricks, the real thing in front of real people with real hurt facing me. The joy of being "out of sight", and scoring without anyone having the slightest clue is PRICELESS, along with being highly lucrative too.

Again, pulled me down, school me on how far I can go here. Like I said in my earliar post, I got TONS of stories/experiences of the real thing.. :)

One more time, I apologize for stepping out of bounds..I just need to know where the boundary is, and I will abide..

Luck to you,

ceh


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:58 am 
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You certainly were not out of bounds. I welcomed any comments, however, Akira is correct. That is essentially where I am comming from. Just enjoying the complexities of sleight of hand for its own sake. The beauty of gambling "demonstrations" performed and practiced, for the most part, by magicians, is that we are given the liberty and freedom to explore just about every move and technique ever concocted by a card sharp. Therefore, we get to play around with some of the techniques that have less practical application when money and lives are at stake. Ultimately our job is to entertain and the more impossible the moves, sometime the more entertaining to a lay audience.

Here is the routine I was working on when I originally posted this. Keep in mind the whole purpose of this is to embellish a tall tale to my spectators. Currently there are a lot of "in-hands" false cuts and shuffles in this routine but at it's heart it is a riffle stacking routine. I come at this from several years experience in card magic but I am a relative newbie to hard core gambling moves so I welcome any thoughts. Just so you know, my first priority for improvement is to get rid of the "magiciany" cuts and replace them with more natural looking tabled cuts. Priorities two and three(in no particular order) is the smooth out the riffle stacking and work on my bottom deal. Any thoughts would be welcome.
http://vimeo.com/16581895

cheers,
Erik


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:30 pm 
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eostresh wrote:
You certainly were not out of bounds. I welcomed any comments, however, Akira is correct. That is essentially where I am comming from. Just enjoying the complexities of sleight of hand for its own sake. The beauty of gambling "demonstrations" performed and practiced, for the most part, by magicians, is that we are given the liberty and freedom to explore just about every move and technique ever concocted by a card sharp. Therefore, we get to play around with some of the techniques that have less practical application when money and lives are at stake. Ultimately our job is to entertain and the more impossible the moves, sometime the more entertaining to a lay audience.

Here is the routine I was working on when I originally posted this. Keep in mind the whole purpose of this is to embellish a tall tale to my spectators. Currently there are a lot of "in-hands" false cuts and shuffles in this routine but at it's heart it is a riffle stacking routine. I come at this from several years experience in card magic but I am a relative newbie to hard core gambling moves so I welcome any thoughts. Just so you know, my first priority for improvement is to get rid of the "magiciany" cuts and replace them with more natural looking tabled cuts. Priorities two and three(in no particular order) is the smooth out the riffle stacking and work on my bottom deal. Any thoughts would be welcome.
http://vimeo.com/16581895

cheers,
Erik


First off, I am glad I am not out of bounds, and I do not mean to offend.

With that said, let me deal with the cut and false cut first.

IMO, the spectators/audience would be better doing the cutting. In my gambling experiences,and the very few times I played with a partner, the partner was never a sure thing to make a good cut, I would have to go to the innocent players to get the cut I want. Providing you have everything you want in the place on the deck where you want it, preferalbe the TOP, all is left is to get the cut done for it to look legit, and that is 98% of the job.

I could riffle and count at the same time, in fact too fast for someone to follow, and along with making it fast, and as sloppy as I can. After a successful run up, I proceed to sloppingly false shuffle. But, the clincher is in the crimp. I had a crimping style second to none! (smile)

First in the crimping action, I would bend the edges of the deck inwards during the riffle, that way, if someone was really looking close, they couldn't see the cull on top. After that, a couple false shuffles using inward jogs, then I would crimp both sides of the deck, one in the other out, but here comes the beauty of that move. After crimping and putting the two halves together, I squeeze them together. That way, the crimp is OUT OF SIGHT, but still there, and if one gets close to it, the crimp acts like a magnet and draws the fingers to the right spot, and the deck seperates right at the crimp.

Along with that, placement of the deck to the person doing the cutting is super important too. All little moves perfect the single move. I place the deck RIGHT UNDERNEATH THE ONE THAT IS DOING THE CUTTING.

When that is done, 99.8 times the person doing the cutting hits the invisible crimp in the deck. Case closed, all my action is on top now and ready to go.

Later I will discuss the shuffling. Hopefully, this is what you were talking about. I am an older gent now, 70 years old, and a little senility might be sneaking in, so hoping I am on target here... :)

ceh


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:06 pm 
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cehowardrc51 wrote:
First off, I am glad I am not out of bounds, and I do not mean to offend.

With that said, let me deal with the cut and false cut first.

IMO, the spectators/audience would be better doing the cutting. In my gambling experiences,and the very few times I played with a partner, the partner was never a sure thing to make a good cut, I would have to go to the innocent players to get the cut I want. Providing you have everything you want in the place on the deck where you want it, preferalbe the TOP, all is left is to get the cut done for it to look legit, and that is 98% of the job.

That's my goal. I'm currently working on some drop shifts because I want to offer the deck to a spectator for cutting and then do a shift in the action of picking up and squaring the deck in prep for the deal. The drop shifts look easier to me, being a newbie, unless you can think of any reason I should start with
learning a hop first?
Quote:

I could riffle and count at the same time, in fact too fast for someone to follow, and along with making it fast, and as sloppy as I can. After a successful run up, I proceed to sloppingly false shuffle. But, the clincher is in the crimp. I had a crimping style second to none! (smile)

First in the crimping action, I would bend the edges of the deck inwards during the riffle, that way, if someone was really looking close, they couldn't see the cull on top. After that, a couple false shuffles using inward jogs, then I would crimp both sides of the deck, one in the other out, but here comes the beauty of that move. After crimping and putting the two halves together, I squeeze them together. That way, the crimp is OUT OF SIGHT, but still there, and if one gets close to it, the crimp acts like a magnet and draws the fingers to the right spot, and the deck seperates right at the crimp.

Along with that, placement of the deck to the person doing the cutting is super important too. All little moves perfect the single move. I place the deck RIGHT UNDERNEATH THE ONE THAT IS DOING THE CUTTING.

When that is done, 99.8 times the person doing the cutting hits the invisible crimp in the deck. Case closed, all my action is on top now and ready to go.

Later I will discuss the shuffling. Hopefully, this is what you were talking about. I am an older gent now, 70 years old, and a little senility might be sneaking in, so hoping I am on target here... :)

ceh
[/quote]
Agreed I need to work on my overall smoothness of the shuffling. This was filmed after a month of practice specifically to get some advice or corrections before moving on. I really like this routine and plan to work it for a good long time. Perhaps I'll post again in a few more months and see how far I have come.

I had thought of using a crimp in that way and that would certainly save me the extra shift. For now though, because I really need the practice, I will probably keep shifting. There is a bottom stack replacement from a holdout so in performance I won't really need to crimp on the fly since I can pre-crimp the bottom.

Thanks for the thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:16 pm 
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cehowardrc51 wrote:
First off, I am glad I am not out of bounds, and I do not mean to offend.

With that said, let me deal with the cut and false cut first.

IMO, the spectators/audience would be better doing the cutting. In my gambling experiences,and the very few times I played with a partner, the partner was never a sure thing to make a good cut, I would have to go to the innocent players to get the cut I want. Providing you have everything you want in the place on the deck where you want it, preferalbe the TOP, all is left is to get the cut done for it to look legit, and that is 98% of the job.

I could riffle and count at the same time, in fact too fast for someone to follow, and along with making it fast, and as sloppy as I can. After a successful run up, I proceed to sloppingly false shuffle. But, the clincher is in the crimp. I had a crimping style second to none! (smile)

First in the crimping action, I would bend the edges of the deck inwards during the riffle, that way, if someone was really looking close, they couldn't see the cull on top. After that, a couple false shuffles using inward jogs, then I would crimp both sides of the deck, one in the other out, but here comes the beauty of that move. After crimping and putting the two halves together, I squeeze them together. That way, the crimp is OUT OF SIGHT, but still there, and if one gets close to it, the crimp acts like a magnet and draws the fingers to the right spot, and the deck seperates right at the crimp.

Along with that, placement of the deck to the person doing the cutting is super important too. All little moves perfect the single move. I place the deck RIGHT UNDERNEATH THE ONE THAT IS DOING THE CUTTING.

When that is done, 99.8 times the person doing the cutting hits the invisible crimp in the deck. Case closed, all my action is on top now and ready to go.

Later I will discuss the shuffling. Hopefully, this is what you were talking about. I am an older gent now, 70 years old, and a little senility might be sneaking in, so hoping I am on target here... :)

ceh

I just want to say thank you for your insights into your extremely interesting experiences. Hopefully you will continue to share your stories with us!


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:41 am 
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here is my second attempt at this routine. Pardon the fact that I'm doing it while reviewing the deck. seems to be the most common excuse for me to post videos..lol

http://vimeo.com/19883667


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:07 pm 
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Thanks for the video Eostresh !! I always enjoy seeing Penguins in action.

The video confused me at first, but perhaps without the patter that actually goes with the routine it will do that. Lol, but if i shut my eyes and stop trying to pay attention it was a good review !!! And vice versa, if i block my ears it is a decent trick :)
But anyway, i know you were not doing it as a performance piece.

Keep working on it Eostresh !!! It looks like it will be well worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:18 am 
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Sorry about that. Here is the full routine I am working on. This was shot a while back. It includes the full patter but both the moves and the patter are much rougher.

http://vimeo.com/16581895

Here is another live performance of the Poker Blind Demo...with patter. Again...the moves are a lot rougher since this was a few months back. This performance was also added to a tale end of a review so If you have no interest in Waddington No.1s skip to 4:17. That's where the performance starts.

http://vimeo.com/16939872

Basically what I am realizing is that patter can really screw you up in some of these more difficult gambling demos. You really need to practice while pattering. Some of the moments on my more recent video(the times where it seems as if I am slowing down a bit) have more to do with thinking about what I am saying and keeping track of where my aces are than it does with being uncomfortable with the mechanics of the effect. If I did it without pattering I could probably do this entire sequence in 3 minutes or less.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:13 am 
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Quote:
Basically what I am realizing is that patter can really screw you up in some of these more difficult gambling demos. You really need to practice while pattering. Some of the moments on my more recent video(the times where it seems as if I am slowing down a bit) have more to do with thinking about what I am saying and keeping track of where my aces are than it does with being uncomfortable with the mechanics of the effect. If I did it without pattering I could probably do this entire sequence in 3 minutes or less.


For sure !!
The second video in the your most recent post (I like Waddingtons, though i don't get them much) was pretty good !!! You certainly sucked in the lady at the start. You were starting a trick and she thought she was still just having a conversation, i love that !!! I try and do that much more than actually having stock patter to something.

The sleights were not bad either ! I saw the finger fluttering you warned us about (in the video) but it was not so obvious that a lay person would notice.
The bottom deal is an annoying one sometimes. The get ready for your bottom should happen (in this case) while you are dealing out the other hands so that when you get to your hand, all you have to do is 'take it' with the receiving hand, not hand it over with the dealing hand.

Now i feel like doing a deck review... but i don't have any interesting ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Shuffle work....addictive?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Incognito wrote:
Quote:
Basically what I am realizing is that patter can really screw you up in some of these more difficult gambling demos. You really need to practice while pattering. Some of the moments on my more recent video(the times where it seems as if I am slowing down a bit) have more to do with thinking about what I am saying and keeping track of where my aces are than it does with being uncomfortable with the mechanics of the effect. If I did it without pattering I could probably do this entire sequence in 3 minutes or less.


For sure !!
The second video in the your most recent post (I like Waddingtons, though i don't get them much) was pretty good !!! You certainly sucked in the lady at the start. You were starting a trick and she thought she was still just having a conversation, i love that !!! I try and do that much more than actually having stock patter to something.

The sleights were not bad either ! I saw the finger fluttering you warned us about (in the video) but it was not so obvious that a lay person would notice.
The bottom deal is an annoying one sometimes. The get ready for your bottom should happen (in this case) while you are dealing out the other hands so that when you get to your hand, all you have to do is 'take it' with the receiving hand, not hand it over with the dealing hand.

Now i feel like doing a deck review... but i don't have any interesting ones.

Yeah definitely agree on those bottoms. I have indeed started getting my get ready while dealing the other hands...I'm actually pretty happy with my bottoms on the most recent one(SWE Deck Review) but even there I can see a little flutter. Always room for improvement. Thus the title of this thread I guess. Some of these moves can be learned in an afternoon but will take months to be competant at an years to master. Thanks for your input. Cheers!


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