Ever notice how neither Michael Ammar nor the Masked Magician have ever been accused of cheating?

Well if it was to be used during a game it would deff be considered it... like I said it just happened to be this guys particular patter, which I admit wasn't great, but I could make an argument of using a DL during a card game and the being considered cheating... IMO that is

So are you saying that every move used in a gambling demo is "cheating" because that's what you're demonstrating? Because I think it's safe to assume that yes, sleights are cheating in games, but in magic they are just another tool.

-JT

Haha it looks like we were both saying the same thing... just over complicating it

Just making sure I wasn't confused. Cheers!

-JT

I suppose it's possible to have multiple uses of the word "cheating". I would personally consider magic tricks as a way of cheating at real magic. Then on top of that, camera tricks are a way of cheating at magic tricks.

So someone doing a camera trick claiming it's a magic trick is like someone doing a magic trick claiming it's real magic.

I would also consider magic as a way of cheating at card sharkery, which in turn is a way of cheating at luck.

So, if there's a gambling demo claiming to show real gambling techniques, and a magic trick is performed, that's cheating; if it's a demo on how to appear to be good at gambling by using magic tricks, then that's fine.

But is it cheating in the sense that someone is losing out on something while another party gains?

-JT

My previous post used "cheating" to mean "faking". Yes, you can also use it to mean "swindling". That's why the word causes so many problems in magic-related topics because it can be interpreted in so any g----mn ways.

Personally I take all sleight of hand or deception as "cheating", so I don't really see it as a bad thing in a magic context.

-JT

Derren is great, besides there is no "cheating" in magic

I remember watching a couple episodes where Derren Brown caused one man to think he was actually inside a first person shooter with zombies. On another episode he somehow convinced another person that he was a Ventriloquist doll and then on another episode he put one person into what seemed like a catatonic trance inside a picture booth for a passport, only to wake up in a completely different country. The name of where he went is eluding me at the moment, but it was quite the interesting episode.

Upon doing more research and also re-watching the episodes, I wonder if the statement that Derren Brown made about watching the participants over the course of a few weeks or a month, so that he would be sure that they were the ideal person he needed to accomplish the specific experience he had planned for them. However, since Mentalists have and still do use confederates, maybe not as much in this day and age, as opposed to years and years ago. Although that is just my opinion, and I will happily stand corrected if I am indeed wrong in my thought process

Marrakech, Morocco.

In his latest special, "Hero at 30,000ft", he uses the same sort of technique on a spectator in an aeroplane. In the show, the participant is given the opportunity to help land the plane when the pilot is incapacitated. When he agrees, Derren hypnotises him and wakes him up in a flight simulator for the actual landing.

The invisibility effect is an actual hypnotic phenomenon. Again while no one knows what's going on in hypnosis it appears to be an achievable phenomenon. The laughter can be explained from the view that the participant was nervous, especially with the idea of suddenly not being able to see someone they can hear and see the effects of. So just because there was laughter doesn't mean we can assume it was because he felt the need to fake it or wasn't really experiencing the invisibility phenomenon. Just because he didn't experience it how you thought it should be experienced doesn't mean he didn't experience it.

As for cheating, that's what we all do. She used the term cheating because she's under the impression he's for real, and through a lapse of technique found out he's not really psychic. That's all that happened here.

In all respect I think Derren Brown uses stooges. Why do I care? Because some of the effects he does just yells "stooge" or "camera trick" to the audience. The audience doesn't care if your method is "legit" if they are suspecious of a stooge or a camera trick. This means that some tricks that play huge in front of a close up audience don't play very well on TV because of the fact that people know about editing and stooges. Eventhough you're not, you will never convince the at home audience otherwise. This also means that every time someone on TV does an effect that could have been accomplished by using a stooge, he contributes to the at home audiences perception of magic... "They all use camera tricks and stooges, so why am I watching this?"

...Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him?


-Widding

To be honest, I think he tells the truth. While he denies using paid stooges and camera trickery, this does not rule out instant stooges, nor camera editing, both of which I know first hand that he does use.