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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:25 am 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
I can't find the logic in center tears?

Because there is none. You have to create it, or imply it. I personally think the CT is a fantastic move if performed correctly. There is no logic in the move itself, you - the performer - have to make it. Be creative, why would you need to destroy the paper directly after someone wrote on it? There are a vast number different ways to rationalize this action.
The CT has been tried, tested and worked for ages. Granted, its probably performed badly more often than it is performed well but this does not make the move bad. It is only a "ridiculous premise" if you make it one and only "blatant visual compromise" if you perform it as such.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:16 am 
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revelation77 wrote:
Peter_turner1 wrote:
I can't find the logic in center tears?

Because there is none. You have to create it, or imply it. I personally think the CT is a fantastic move if performed correctly. There is no logic in the move itself, you - the performer - have to make it. Be creative, why would you need to destroy the paper directly after someone wrote on it? There are a vast number different ways to rationalize this action.
The CT has been tried, tested and worked for ages. Granted, its probably performed badly more often than it is performed well but this does not make the move bad. It is only a "ridiculous premise" if you make it one and only "blatant visual compromise" if you perform it as such.


You give me one good reason why the paper should be torn up? it is a visual compromise, anytime you ask someone to write anything down that is a compromise if not you would just guess the word from the subjects head.

Just because something is old and overused does not mean it is good, it means it is relied upon as tool. I agree it is the ambiance the performer portrays that makes the situation believable but to anyone with any logic it doesn't make sense.

There are far better moves that are more believable and less 'fishy' to the lay (not talking about impression devices), I think the move it self is genius (for the time period it was invented) But still lacks reasoning.

Yes I agree I have seen lots of terrible performances, even the good ones (where the routines are genius and the performers are exquisite) the move is still an irrelevant one.

Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:10 am 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
You give me one good reason why the paper should be torn up? it is a visual compromise, anytime you ask someone to write anything down that is a compromise if not you would just guess the word from the subjects head.

I'll assume that you are performing the demonstration to more than one person. It makes sense that if a single spectator out of many is thinking of a word, they would let the others (or at least those immediately around them) 'in on' the effect. A way of doing this is having this written down and shown around - "Whatever you do, don't say it out loud, just take this pen and I've got my business card here...".
Another explanation you can give is that since everything is going to take place between your minds, it is easy for the spectator to lie purely just to make you look good, or conversely, embarrass you. So to make sure they won't change their mind or anything have them write it down. There are plenty of rational reasons for billet work to take place and I don't think it should be seen as compromise.
So why should the paper be torn up? One reason I have used in the past is that after the first reasoning I gave for the word to be written in the first place (to show other spectators) I take back the paper and pen (with a sense of unimportance), look to the people around the spectators and ask "So did everyone see the word? Yes? Okay then we'll get rid of this" Execute CT. With a sense that 'we dont need this anymore'. That is one string of logic that I have followed, since you asked, and I think the paper is torn with good reason. After all, you are simply destroying the physical evidence of the word, leaving the rest of the effect to happen in their mind. And since it is with a group of people you can incorporate that into your presentation, talking about how the thoughts of a crowd being stronger than that of a single person [insert cheesy trade show/cliche motivational message here]

Quote:
Just because something is old and overused does not mean it is good, it means it is relied upon as tool. I agree it is the ambiance the performer portrays that makes the situation believable but to anyone with any logic it doesn't make sense.
...Unless you give them reason for it to make sense. Yes, the CT is old and yes, I agree it is possibly a little overused but I do believe that it is good. It is versatile, deceptive and I have personally used it hundreds, possibly thousands of times and fried people...logical people. I don't think it should be used without presentation (I think you understand this), but I think that it should be justified through that presentation.

Quote:
There are far better moves that are more believable and less 'fishy' to the lay (not talking about impression devices), I think the move it self is genius (for the time period it was invented) But still lacks reasoning.

I agree that there are other - better - moves out there. I currently use a switch more than a tear but that is just personal preference. I don't understand, however, how a move can be 'believable' or not, it is the effect and the demonstration that is measure on believability. Remember the CT is a tool.
You say the move is great but lacks reasoning? It doesn't have reasoning, you have to give it reasoning. Think about it, be creative.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:42 am 
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Quote:
I'll assume that you are performing the demonstration to more than one person. It makes sense that if a single spectator out of many is thinking of a word, they would let the others (or at least those immediately around them) 'in on' the effect. A way of doing this is having this written down and shown around - "Whatever you do, don't say it out loud, just take this pen and I've got my business card here...".
Another explanation you can give is that since everything is going to take place between your minds, it is easy for the spectator to lie purely just to make you look good, or conversely, embarrass you. So to make sure they won't change their mind or anything have them write it down. There are plenty of rational reasons for billet work to take place and I don't think it should be seen as compromise.
So why should the paper be torn up? One reason I have used in the past is that after the first reasoning I gave for the word to be written in the first place (to show other spectators) I take back the paper and pen (with a sense of unimportance), look to the people around the spectators and ask "So did everyone see the word? Yes? Okay then we'll get rid of this" Execute CT. With a sense that 'we dont need this anymore'. That is one string of logic that I have followed, since you asked, and I think the paper is torn with good reason. After all, you are simply destroying the physical evidence of the word, leaving the rest of the effect to happen in their mind. And since it is with a group of people you can incorporate that into your presentation, talking about how the thoughts of a crowd being stronger than that of a single person [insert cheesy trade show/cliche motivational message here]


I appreciate that, but if the effect relies on the thought of a group or 'a wisdom of crowds' (then we are talking about a bigger demonstration) wouldn't they write it on a dry wipe board and just erase it? Why not just ask her to place it in her pocket to get rid of the evidence? after all it doesn't matter who she shows it to, if everyone has seen the word. And finally why would you want her showing the word to anyone else as they may be 'stooges in the audience'?.

Quote:
Quote:
There are far better moves that are more believable and less 'fishy' to the lay (not talking about impression devices), I think the move it self is genius (for the time period it was invented) But still lacks reasoning.

I agree that there are other - better - moves out there. I currently use a switch more than a tear but that is just personal preference. I don't understand, however, how a move can be 'believable' or not, it is the effect and the demonstration that is measure on believability. Remember the CT is a tool.
You say the move is great but lacks reasoning? It doesn't have reasoning, you have to give it reasoning. Think about it, be creative.


The move needs to be a natural believable move, here is an example (I wont explain my method but heres an overview) I take the card folded, patter 'as you are the eyes of the audience, please verify that this is your signature on the outside of the card, this eliminates any possibility of me being able to swap the card at any time and also verify the card is much opaque on both sides. Here take the card examine it allover then place it in your pocket'

The card is held at the finger tips, is signed on the outside before it is handed over and is held for less than 2 seconds just to show the audience it is opaque on both sides and that it is signed.

The logic there is look He cant switch it, it is signed, And it cant be seen through, no matter which way around the card is held and it is in my pocket so he cant get to it at anytime.

I do not use the 'acidus novus' and I don't have to make up reasons to rip up any evidence or have to make any believable patter/performance if the move is a believable move it will sell itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:02 am 
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I was getting ready to post as I started reading revelation77's post, and he said what I was going to say almost exactly. So, the reasoning that I use is to show others so that I can't hear them telling eachother and with showing it to others means that more than one person knows the answer. Destroying it so that there is no way of cheating to gain the info.

Zambini


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:36 am 
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zambini wrote:
I was getting ready to post as I started reading revelation77's post, and he said what I was going to say almost exactly. So, the reasoning that I use is to show others so that I can't hear them telling eachother and with showing it to others means that more than one person knows the answer. Destroying it so that there is no way of cheating to gain the info.

Zambini


Thats fine to an audience of three or four people (that are all friends), have you ever performed to a larger audience? it is none practical showing people the billet as you could quite easily have stooges, which I also stated previously.

As soon as you see a mentalist tear a billet what do you think?? 'well I know how thats done' Watch the Gathering by Derren Brown, see if you can see how he gets his info (its not edited out) I'l bet you cant spot it.

A good performer has other performers questioning how he did his stunts, offering other performers that feeling that the lay get when they see something marvelous. It should leave other performers scratching their head.

This move is as universal as a DL is to any card performer and a lot of lay audience know it and if they don't it doesn't take them long to work it out or find the method. Start thinking more cleverly instead of relying on something that is over worked.

Please don't take any offence by my posts as i don't intend any, I have made a post called My new book please read the effects and leave some comments (In the book they never write anything down and there is no need for peeks or Pre-show).

here is the thread

viewtopic.php?f=10005&t=160043


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:41 am 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
zambini wrote:
I was getting ready to post as I started reading revelation77's post, and he said what I was going to say almost exactly. So, the reasoning that I use is to show others so that I can't hear them telling eachother and with showing it to others means that more than one person knows the answer. Destroying it so that there is no way of cheating to gain the info.

Zambini


Thats fine to an audience of three or four people (that are all friends), have you ever performed to a larger audience? it is none practical showing people the billet as you could quite easily have stooges, which I also stated previously.

As soon as you see a mentalist tear a billet what do you think?? 'well I know how thats done' Watch the Gathering by Derren Brown, see if you can see how he gets his info (its not edited out) I'l bet you cant spot it.

A good performer has other performers questioning how he did his stunts, offering other performers that feeling that the lay get when they see something marvelous. It should leave other performers scratching their head.

This move is as universal as a DL is to any card performer and a lot of lay audience know it and if they don't it doesn't take them long to work it out or find the method. Start thinking more cleverly instead of relying on something that is over worked.

Please don't take any offence by my posts as i don't intend any, I have made a post called My new book please read the effects and leave some comments (In the book they never write anything down and there is no need for peeks or Pre-show).

here is the thread

viewtopic.php?f=10005&t=160043


Just as a bit of a warning, you have to earn respect here. And lots of self promotion and constantly challenging what other mentalists in this forum say is not the way to do it. I realize you have your own opinions, but you might want to consider revising how you're saying them. I also am aware that you intend to offense from your posts, but just be wary that if you post links to threads about your new book (unnecessary because we can find it ourselves), or simply outright disagree with someone it won't reflect well on you. I realize you've fooled Kenton, but to me you're coming off a bit too egotistical. So just tone it down a bit and be respectful and it will be returned to you. That isn't to say you haven't been respectful up until now, just keep doing so and stop self promoting. That's the only advice I can give you as a new member here.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:11 am 
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I never would intend to offend anybody, I never mentioned I had fooled Kenton and I haven't released the second book as yet. I was asking for opinions on the effect to see they match the criteria that people are looking for in a book.

I never would provoke anybody as it is not in my nature and isn't the idea of having a discussions forum to express individual opinion?

It doesn't matter how new someone is to a forum, I offer my respect to every performer and I don't believe asking for reciprocation is too much.

Overview- no offence intended, no self promotion intended and opinions asked for.

Sorry if I offended anyone. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
zambini wrote:
I was getting ready to post as I started reading revelation77's post, and he said what I was going to say almost exactly. So, the reasoning that I use is to show others so that I can't hear them telling eachother and with showing it to others means that more than one person knows the answer. Destroying it so that there is no way of cheating to gain the info.

Zambini


Thats fine to an audience of three or four people (that are all friends), have you ever performed to a larger audience? it is none practical showing people the billet as you could quite easily have stooges, which I also stated previously.

I do not recall anyone saying that this was for a large groud, I could be wrong. I thought that we were talking about for a few people in a group, and it doesn't have to be friend's.

Now to answer your question of have I ever performed for a larger audience. I have been performing for about 40 years and yes I have performed for larger audiences than 100 and less than 2. I have performed close-up, parlor and stage. I have also performed on TV, now how about you. I forgot that I have worked with a performer that worked with Houdini as a child and become to be known as Mr Magic, I got a standing ovation from my magic peers at a magic convintion.


As soon as you see a mentalist tear a billet what do you think?? 'well I know how thats done'

That would be because I am a magician and know how the effect is done, to a laymen they don't know the secret unless they are into magic, looked it up, someone showed them or they learned it from youtube.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:44 pm 
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zambini wrote:
Peter_turner1 wrote:
zambini wrote:
I was getting ready to post as I started reading revelation77's post, and he said what I was going to say almost exactly. So, the reasoning that I use is to show others so that I can't hear them telling eachother and with showing it to others means that more than one person knows the answer. Destroying it so that there is no way of cheating to gain the info.

Zambini


Thats fine to an audience of three or four people (that are all friends), have you ever performed to a larger audience? it is none practical showing people the billet as you could quite easily have stooges, which I also stated previously.

I do not recall anyone saying that this was for a large groud, I could be wrong. I thought that we were talking about for a few people in a group, and it doesn't have to be friend's.

Now to answer your question of have I ever performed for a larger audience. I have been performing for about 40 years and yes I have performed for larger audiences than 100 and less than 2. I have performed close-up, parlor and stage. I have also performed on TV, now how about you. I forgot that I have worked with a performer that worked with Houdini as a child and become to be known as Mr Magic, I got a standing ovation from my magic peers at a magic convintion.


As soon as you see a mentalist tear a billet what do you think?? 'well I know how thats done'

That would be because I am a magician and know how the effect is done, to a laymen they don't know the secret unless they are into magic, looked it up, someone showed them or they learned it from youtube.


(have you performed to a larger audience?) It was a hypothetical/rhetorical question.

How about me? I perform more or less every single week to large audiences, 90% of the time over 100 people per show, I have released literature with the best mentalists in the industry, performed close up, parlour, stage, corporate, private and I am happy doing what i do.

It's fine to drop names you have worked with 'someone' (not yourself) who has worked with Houdini that is fantastic, I never pulled you down or slated you??

Can you not read? I never intended offence with my post and was pushing across my view as an individual, please re-read I was asking for some real logic (maybe to change my views) on the CT.

Instead of taking offence with my posts, respond in a positive/ professional manner. You have proved my point in saying you can find out on youtube, from friends or reference it with the greatest of ease. I apologize if I just want to see the industry move forward, instead of grind to a halt!

One more time, I DON'T intend offence. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:29 pm 
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It helps to be a little thick skinned on internet forums since all kinds of subtleties of personalities and communication nuances aren't seen. Certainly no offense felt what so ever on this end of web wire. In fact, I'm enjoying your posts Peter along with everyone's input and appreciating everyone sharing their experience. It's an honor to virtually be among such talent.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Peter_turner1

I am not offended, I was just replying that I have used a center tear and not been caught at it, and just so that you didn't think that I was just a kid I gave some info about me. I didn't mean to come across as offended. If you are dead set against the center tear then why ask what others think, everyone has a method that they like for their personality. I myself do not like mentalism that uses card's as I think that it makes it more like a magic trick. The only card trick that I use for mentalism is "Trilogy", I like the fact that there are three predictions with one pack of cards. I do not care all that much for the center tear, but it does work in the right enviroment.

Just my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
One more time, I DON'T intend offence. :oops:

This is clear. To be honest, I've quite enjoyed your posts. We are simply a few people with differing opinions and the ability to communicate as to why we hold those opinions. I believe it is debates like these that further the art of mentalism. And I believe that we should all question the methods we use, and if you do use them, we should have reason why we use that particular method.
Thankyou for posting your thoughts on this Peter, I still disagree but I am not offended in the slightest. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:27 am 
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:D

Good morning folks (I'm in the uk here so a few will still be in bed)

I'm glad that their is some variety in opinion :) makes the mind question itself, off to see Derren tonight I hear good things about the new show.


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 Post subject: Re: Impromptu Centre Tear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:25 am 
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Peter_turner1 wrote:
off to see Derren tonight I hear good things about the new show.

Okay...officially jealous now! :P Be sure to let us know how the show is!


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