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 Post subject: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Charleston, S.C.
We were downtown today scouting locations to set up and perform. Found several great ones, one where we could catch the cruise ship traffic, one in front of the Customs House, and a great one close to "The Market". We also found another one at "Battery Park" which was ruled out due to lack of foot traffic.

Decided to ask a police officer about the local laws regarding "busking". He wasn't real sure but knew we would need a business license to "preform for charitable contributions" and directed us to the County Office Building. Went over there and were directed over to the City Office Building because we would be inside the city limits. Drove over to Calhoun Street and went to the business license office.

We will need the following:

Criminal background checks preformed by the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division.

Background checks will be submited to the Charleston Police Department along with the application for a business license to "perform for charitable contributions" They will need to approve it.

At that time we will return and recieve the license

The license will cost us $75.00 for the first $2000 of "potential" revenue and a factor of $I am not Sure.00 for each $1000.00 of revunue. This is based on what we think we might reviece for the year.

We were then given a map of downtown showing the "restricted" ares where we CAN NOT "perform for charitable contributions".

We will be limited to a 3 block area of Meeting Street and the College of Charleston Campus. All areas of the "tourist district" are is strickly off limits.

We are also "stricky prohibited" from any type of performance that will cause disrubtion to the normal flow of pedestrian and/ or street traffic either automible or carriage.

The only thing that makes it better is that our license to "perform for charitable contributions" must be displayed at all times while performing.

Needless to say we are alot discouraged at this time.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:14 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3251
Location: of my spongeballs eludes me.
All of these "requirements" violate the Constitution's protection of the freedom to assemble.
Believe it or not all of those rules, policies, codes, etc. apply only to those of a certain status and everyone is presumed to be of such status unless expressly rebutted. If you desire to learn how to apply the law for your benefit to perform let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:21 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 402
This also seems like it may be a violation of the 1st ammendment.

-ArchAngel_G


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:17 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Charleston, S.C.
So what do we do....set up and perform. When told to stop, resist. Get ticketed or arrested, post bail retain and attorney and fight it ?

I don't know what we do.

I keep saying we, I am teaming up with a pretty talented musician to do a combined act.

I am at a dead end. I am thinking about contacting an attorney and going from there. I just don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:48 am 
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Moderator

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 4110
Location: Milford OH
All right you 2 "attorneys" be careful about screaming "RIGHTS!!" Especially when you're wrong. the city, county, governing body does have the right to require criminal background checks for all people that are vending/entertaining/whatever to get money from the populace. The part that may be questionable is the fee structure setting the rate to vary according to what you think you will make. That could be arguably a tax. yes the government can tax, but can they tax an imaginary amount? If they see my act and think that I can make $10,000 so they charge me money based on that, will they refund if I only make $2000 or what if I make $1000.

Your big screw up was asking a cop about this and going to the license office. You should have just done it. Remember it is better (and easier) to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I'd do it anyway and hope the same cop doesn't catch you


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:16 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Paddy, respectfully submitted,

I do not see how trying to be a law abiding citizen is a screw up.

What if we had set up and began to perform the police roll up and rather than asking us to stop, they inform us that performing for charitable contributions without a license in a restricted zone is a no tolerance violation. That they must immediately without question confiscate all properties associated with the performance that their hands are tied. They also inform us that there is a minimum $10,000 fine associated with the violation. We get hauled to jail, props get inpounded, and we can tell it to the judge in six weeks.

Oh and by the way, you will need an attorney. The city council as well as the mayor take this type of thing VERY serious. We plead with them saying that we didn't know. They inform us that ignorace of the law is no excuse as they cuff and stuff us?

One other thing that I found funny was that in SEC 17-107 "Obstructing Public Ways". "Save and except those peddlers who are blind, physically disabled or who vend traditional sweetgrass baskets or flowers shall, at all times, maintain a constant foward motion in the peddling of his goods and services; provided, however that any such pebbler may cease foward motion, for such time as nessecary for the transaction of a sale"

I think I am dead in the water.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 402
madcrowd wrote:
Paddy, respectfully submitted,

I do not see how trying to be a law abiding citizen is a screw up.

What if we had set up and began to perform the police roll up and rather than asking us to stop, they inform us that performing for charitable contributions without a license in a restricted zone is a no tolerance violation. That they must immediately without question confiscate all properties associated with the performance that their hands are tied. They also inform us that there is a minimum $10,000 fine associated with the violation. We get hauled to jail, props get inpounded, and we can tell it to the judge in six weeks.

Oh and by the way, you will need an attorney. The city council as well as the mayor take this type of thing VERY serious. We plead with them saying that we didn't know. They inform us that ignorace of the law is no excuse as they cuff and stuff us?

One other thing that I found funny was that in SEC 17-107 "Obstructing Public Ways". "Save and except those peddlers who are blind, physically disabled or who vend traditional sweetgrass baskets or flowers shall, at all times, maintain a constant foward motion in the peddling of his goods and services; provided, however that any such pebbler may cease foward motion, for such time as nessecary for the transaction of a sale"

I think I am dead in the water.

This seems highly unlikely. Unless you happen to run into the cop with a really bad hemeroid problem.

And Paddy, I am sure you have far more knowledge about street performance laws, but the 1st amendment issue is a legitimate one. Out here in Seattle we have a magician, Magic Mike, who was arrested for busking and handing out an animal balloon. He did decide to fight, rather than comply with police and has long since been in a battle over this 1st amendment issue (I bet if he had just complied with the cops they would have just made him leave rather than arresting him). I still see Mike occasionally at the Seattle Center.

How this was resolved I have not looked into. Perhaps I should.

-ArchAngel_G


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Magic Mike, who was arrested for busking and handing out an animal balloon.

I guess Magic Mike ran into a cop with a really bad hemeroid problem and it sounds like he had a case of them too.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 235
Their objections all have to do with obstruction of traffic. If you must perform in this city, perhaps try finding an area of private property where you can perform. Perhaps a business will allow you to use a corner of a parking lot near a busy sidewalk.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Ya know you might have an idea there.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Moderator

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 4110
Location: Milford OH
Well i have been busking for around 15+ years and NEVER, EVER even heard of a busker being arrested if they just said "oops, I didn't know sorry." When you tell the cop that you have a "right" to be there after he has told you, then he may get testy, if you threaten said cop with suing him for "violating your rights," YOU'RE SCREWED. I am sure that is just what "magic Mike" did, shot off his big mouth until he urinated the cop off.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:51 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3251
Location: of my spongeballs eludes me.
"Oops, I didn't know sorry" is fine for those who don't mind moving along. For those who know they have the freedom to perform where there is no valid reason to stop and they intend to go about their lawful business of performing, there is remedy.

Threatening an officer is certainly not the way to go but if one insists on violating your liberty they are not above the law. Contrary to popular belief, Corporate STATE and Municipal codes and regulations only apply to certain persons, by properly expressing one's status through NOTICE, a strong basis for recourse is in place for when one is violated. This may include compensation for unlawful seizure, damages for time lost from one's profession and other related injuries.

Uniform Commercial Code 1-201
(32) "Remedy" means any remedial right to which an aggrieved party is entitled with or without resort to a tribunal.

§ 1-202. Notice; Knowledge.

(a) Subject to subsection (f), a person has "notice" of a fact if the person: (1) has actual knowledge of it; (2) has received a notice or notification of it; or (3) from all the facts and circumstances known to the person at the time in question, has reason to know that it exists.

(b) "Knowledge" means actual knowledge. "Knows" has a corresponding meaning.

(c) "Discover", "learn", or words of similar import refer to knowledge rather than to reason to know.

(d) A person "notifies" or "gives" a notice or notification to another person by taking such steps as may be reasonably required to inform the other person in ordinary course, whether or not the other person actually comes to know of it.

(e) Subject to subsection (f), a person "receives" a notice or notification when: (1) it comes to that person's attention; or (2) it is duly delivered in a form reasonable under the circumstances at the place of business through which the contract was made or at another location held out by that person as the place for receipt of such communications.

(f) Notice, knowledge, or a notice or notification received by an organization is effective for a particular transaction from the time it is brought to the attention of the individual conducting that transaction and, in any event, from the time it would have been brought to the individual's attention if the organization had exercised due diligence. An organization exercises due diligence if it maintains reasonable routines for communicating significant information to the person conducting the transaction and there is reasonable compliance with the routines. Due diligence does not require an individual acting for the organization to communicate information unless the communication is part of the individual's regular duties or the individual has reason to know of the transaction and that the transaction would be materially affected by the information.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/1/article1.htm#s1-201


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 4110
Location: Milford OH
EZ, yes you have a legal point, but why get your azz busted over a stupid "principle." Go with the flow, stay out of jail and make MONEY. Fighting COSTS money, moving makes money and that's why we busk.


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:21 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 218
Location: Nashville Tn.
I know of several cases like this that the busker called the A.C.L.U. and they got involed and the city backed off.Not sure if this is your answer but hey...the phone call is free.

http://www.aclu.org/

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Houston we have a problem....
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:49 am 
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born to perform.

Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3251
Location: of my spongeballs eludes me.
Good idea Don.

And you have an excellent point Paddy. Those who feel they should move on and those who feel they should take a proper stand should do so. One may certainly go about taking a stance without getting busted as there are tactful ways of doing so. If no one takes a stand the restrictions will continue to increase and the so called hoops to jump through become smaller and are raised higher just because that the nature of the issue.


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