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 Post subject: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:00 am 
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Penguin

Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 13
Hey guys,

I was wondering which DVD/ DVD set to buy next.

I'm looking for something with a skillful tricks ( think along the lines of Dan and Dave's The Trilogy).
A strong magic effect will also do, I'm just looking for a good intermediate/expert DVD, preferably card magic.
Other recommendations are welcome as well :)

- Jazz


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:36 am 
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You get way more info and sleights from a book. You could start working through Card College. Don't know many of the videos, especially for something more advanced.

-ArchAngel_G


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:25 am 
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ArchAngel_G wrote:
You get way more info and sleights from a book. You could start working through Card College. Don't know many of the videos, especially for something more advanced.

-ArchAngel_G


Looks good, I'll check it out. Always thought it was a beginner's book, don't know why.


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:48 am 
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Even the first book goes over somewhat difficult sleights, like the cull (Although I highly recommend getting the road runner cull video. That is intermediate to advanced).

-ArchAngel_G


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:41 pm 
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born to perform.

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Once you are getting into intermediate and advanced card magic there really is no single source to send you to. That is where things start to diversify and you have to start making decisions. Styles definitely influence different card magicians which in turn should lead you in different directions. The one single book that will probably appeal to any move monkey, regardless of style, is Earnest Earick's "By Forces Unseen"(written by Steven Minch) If you are into cool card productions, clever modifications off of DPS and side steals, an insanely difficult(for me at least) one handed bottom palm, or some serious riffle stacking and gambling demos, this book will have something for you. In the words of Lee Asher(paraphrased) "Earick's work is unnecessarily difficult....and yet so cool!" That pretty much sums it up. If you are a move monkey, regardless of style, get this book.

If you are looking for some great work on cover pass, plus a few other gems, get Aaron Fisher's Paper Engine. Kimlat's "Roadrunner Cull" is generally regarded as the real work on culling, though I quite liked Ian Moran's "Cullfather"(MC spread DL...Thing of BEAUTY!)

If you are thinking about doing some gambling and table magic look into Jason Englands "Fundamentals" and then move on to Richard Turner and Darwin Ortiz. Also Alan Ackerman's "Advanced Card Control Series" is a great reference for moves developed prior to 1990s. He doesn't go into lots of detail but if you rewind a gazillion times you should get the basics.

You mentioned the Bucks. Well...peruse their "on demand" section. If you see a trick you like, get it. A lot of those tricks can be angle sensitive so they are better geared towards small groups but it is still good fun stuff to work on. If you like that "flashy" style of magic then you should probably check out Lee Asher. His philosophy is, "I'm not trying to look natural...I want to look supernatural." I think that is a great philosophy for the current era. I know many Vernon devotees will disagree with me here but I honestly think the modern audience is aware that when you are doing card magic you are demonstrating a skill...not magic. Thus, it is no harm to demonstrate extra ordinary skill with the cards when you perform.

Anyways, that is a quick overview but by no means comprehensive. It will get you to the level of a competent intermediate within one or two years...maybe a bit more??? Becoming truly expert will require lots of study of the classics, Vernon, Marlo, Miller, Erdnase, ect. You study those and you will be studying the guys that influenced the list above. From there you can start to comprehend the true fundamentals.


OH!!! Almost forgot! Don't forget the Spanish! Ascanio and Tamariz. Indeed if you do want your magic to be completely baffling then they are a must!

Hope that helped.


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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eostresh wrote:
Once you are getting into intermediate and advanced card magic there really is no single source to send you to. That is where things start to diversify and you have to start making decisions. Styles definitely influence different card magicians which in turn should lead you in different directions. The one single book that will probably appeal to any move monkey, regardless of style, is Earnest Earick's "By Forces Unseen"(written by Steven Minch) If you are into cool card productions, clever modifications off of DPS and side steals, an insanely difficult(for me at least) one handed bottom palm, or some serious riffle stacking and gambling demos, this book will have something for you. In the words of Lee Asher(paraphrased) "Earick's work is unnecessarily difficult....and yet so cool!" That pretty much sums it up. If you are a move monkey, regardless of style, get this book.


'Unnecessarily difficult', well that sounds a little negative but i'll be sure to check it out! Sounds promising.

eostresh wrote:
If you are thinking about doing some gambling and table magic look into Jason Englands "Fundamentals" and then move on to Richard Turner and Darwin Ortiz.


I got my gambling and table magic basics from simon lovell and few books but I have been hearing a lot about Darwin Ortiz. Which of the two would you say is best?

eostresh wrote:
If you like that "flashy" style of magic then you should probably check out Lee Asher.

I know the asher twist ( as most card magicians ) , and I have been drooling over his Five Card Stud Dvd, which looks very good. But I can't find a lot of other releases except for a few collaborations. Are these also worth the effort?


eostresh wrote:
His philosophy is, "I'm not trying to look natural...I want to look supernatural." I think that is a great philosophy for the current era. I know many Vernon devotees will disagree with me here but I honestly think the modern audience is aware that when you are doing card magic you are demonstrating a skill...not magic. Thus, it is no harm to demonstrate extra ordinary skill with the cards when you perform.


That's a nice philosophy/motto indeed, that's what I'm aiming at.
I always start my routine by stating, ' What you will see now is not magic, even if it may seem so at times. I don't wear a pointy hat and I don't have a beard, therefore I was not admitted to hogwarts. What you will now see is merely skill, sleight of hand and a lot of wasted time.'
Some people state that this ruins or devalues my showcase. But I feel as though it shows that I am in control and that what I do is professional, takes a lot of effort and isn't your uncle's 'lookwhatsbehindyourear' trick. For me, Skill>Magic. Slightly.
That being said, I have seen a lot of more magic focused magicians who deliver a great show, but it isn't something i'd feel natural, if you will, implementing in my routine(s).


eostresh wrote:
OH!!! Almost forgot! Don't forget the Spanish! Ascanio and Tamariz. Indeed if you do want your magic to be completely baffling then they are a must!

I am not familiar with Ascanio , but I absolutely love Tamariz! I do not own a whole lot of him but I am currently expanding.


- Jazz


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:39 pm 
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jazzh wrote:
'Unnecessarily difficult', well that sounds a little negative but i'll be sure to check it out! Sounds promising.

haha...Well he doesn't mean it to be negative but you kind of have to be a move monkey to get what he means.
Quote:

I got my gambling and table magic basics from simon lovell and few books but I have been hearing a lot about Darwin Ortiz. Which of the two would you say is best?

I don't have any Simon Lovell in order to answer that with certainty. By reputation Ortiz would win that bout, though Lovell is no slouch! For gambling though, I think Richard Turner or Steve Forte are generally regarded as the inheriters of the Scarne's crown. For a guys who do gambling demos that really connect with the audience look into Martin Nash and even Bill Malone. But for pure skill Turner and Forte are generally regarded as the best with Ortiz not far behind.
Quote:
I know the asher twist ( as most card magicians ) , and I have been drooling over his Five Card Stud Dvd, which looks very good. But I can't find a lot of other releases except for a few collaborations. Are these also worth the effort?

Five card Stud is hilarious! (In a kind of cheezy way) but Asher and Wilson's "Hit the Road," (also pretty funny) has more effects and flourishes. If you really want Asher material you need to check out is downloadable PDFs. http://www.leeasher.com/store/index.html
I would recommend getting the Diving Board Doube/ Thunderbird combo. If you like that then look into his booklets. Here is a quick vid of the non-acrobatic Diving board DL http://vimeo.com/9215963 Look on Asher's website for the acrobatic version.
Quote:




That's a nice philosophy/motto indeed, that's what I'm aiming at.
I always start my routine by stating, ' What you will see now is not magic, even if it may seem so at times. I don't wear a pointy hat and I don't have a beard, therefore I was not admitted to hogwarts. What you will now see is merely skill, sleight of hand and a lot of wasted time.'

HaHaHa! I love that! Yeah if that is how you would define your performances then Lee Asher might be a good start. I would go with Asher and maybe even some of the Gambling experts mentioned earlier(since gambling demos make no bones about the fact that it is a demonstration of skill not magic.) (side note- I almost look at gambling demos as a form of tabled flourishing since the cards the cards are generally controlled and handled in so as to make you look like a trained croupier. Real card cheats would likely not outwardly demonstrate their skills)
Quote:
Some people state that this ruins or devalues my showcase. But I feel as though it shows that I am in control and that what I do is professional, takes a lot of effort and isn't your uncle's 'lookwhatsbehindyourear' trick. For me, Skill>Magic. Slightly.
That being said, I have seen a lot of more magic focused magicians who deliver a great show, but it isn't something i'd feel natural, if you will, implementing in my routine(s).

I have no qualms with that. I think, especially with card magic, that magicians who want their audience to think that they are performing real magic, are not giving their audience enough credit.
Quote:
I am not familiar with Ascanio , but I absolutely love Tamariz! I do not own a whole lot of him but I am currently expanding.

Ascanio was Tamariz'z mentor. I have been indirectly exposed to some of his work(Aaron Fisher uses a lot of "Intransient action" principles in his work) but have yet to read any of it first hand. So much good magic out there....so little time!


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:46 pm 
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One thing you might consider is if you're really willing to put All the time and effort into learning all these difficult sleights? Remember magic is about the audiences perception, they don't care how many hours you've spent practicing, they just want entertaintment.

Take for instance The Buck twins trilogy, it has a lot of advanced card stuff, but are the effects magical? I mean they last a maximum of 40 seconds and are basically 'Pick a card' - 'is this your card'? Tricks. Tricks like that are boring (and together with Dan and Dave's boring presentations) we get a boring pointless effect. Even for laymen.

I'd enter a contest anytime competing for the prize of entertainment value, and going up against XCM, and I Will only use tricks found in books in the public library. (ok, I might exagerate a bit here, but you get the point)

Presentation is everything!

Just my two cents. And good luck anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Good points Nick...and for that reason, if you don't know "Doc Dailey's last trick" LEARN IT!
Also add little touches here and there. Ie. ACR. Instead of you turning over the card to reveal it having returned to the top have the spectator do so. Little things like that make a big difference. However remember, Flourishing, XCM, Cardistry, regardless of what the traditionalists try to tell you, wont "hurt" your performances. So if you have the time to devote to it without taking away from learning powerful sleight of hand that will fool, baffle, and above all entertain your audience then go for it. Some effects, especially if you make no bones about the fact that you are demonstrating sleight of hand, will actually benefit from a fancy cut sequence. I have great success combining the two, so does Chris Beason, and more famously, Daniel Madison has managed to combine the two without sacrificing the impact of his magic. People who think that flourishing takes away from the magic are generally comparing their performances to flourishers who also do a little magic....not magicians who add a little flourishing. There is a big difference.


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 Post subject: Re: What's a recommendation?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:52 am 
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nickmadsen wrote:
One thing you might consider is if you're really willing to put All the time and effort into learning all these difficult sleights? Remember magic is about the audiences perception, they don't care how many hours you've spent practicing, they just want entertaintment.

Take for instance The Buck twins trilogy, it has a lot of advanced card stuff, but are the effects magical? I mean they last a maximum of 40 seconds and are basically 'Pick a card' - 'is this your card'? Tricks. Tricks like that are boring (and together with Dan and Dave's boring presentations) we get a boring pointless effect. Even for laymen.


I disagree, about the Buck twins at least. I have seem the Buck twins live and although they have a unique, unorthodox style of performing, it is still a very good and entertaining performance. I'd describe it as 'They let their skills do the talking.' It is very entertaining as there is a lot going on and you're constantly watching the deck and having somebody talk throughout is frankly distracting.

And you're right, people don't want to know how long you practiced but they want to be entertained. Except this is not a 'one or the other' situation, it's both. To truly be entertaining you have to practice, and I don't mean just tricks also the presentation etc. And I find that when you state that this requires time and practice, that you'll be seen more as an professional. Just wanted to share those thoughts.


nickmadsen wrote:
I'd enter a contest anytime competing for the prize of entertainment value, and going up against XCM, and I Will only use tricks found in books in the public library. (ok, I might exagerate a bit here, but you get the point)

I did enter a few contests, which was pretty fun. And XCM is a long time nemesis keeping me busy for years, I do enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of perfecting a move.

Futhermore, thank you for your advice, you are right;
Presentation is everything


- Jazz


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