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 Post subject: The age issue
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:59 pm 
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Penguin

Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 75
I hope the mods don’t mind me posting this. I’m not trying to start trouble by reopening this topic. I just believe someone here needs to be encouraging.

I just finished reading the “How oldâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:23 pm 
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born to perform.

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: In a galaxy somewhere in the vicinity of Betelguese 5
This is only going to end in tears.....

Sir, I clearly think you don't get it. The majority of us here in Penguintown take our art very seriously. We have been studying for a very long time, and working very hard to establish a reputation, and, if you will, a respectability that every day is getting tarnished and destroyed by blatent video exposure, and unpracticed, unpolished, unskilled youngsters. These children with no credibility save for the fact that they can purchase magic tricks from ebay or here, then go out and "perform."

Yes, to their faces they are called "cute," "adorable," and "charming". Yet they are placing all of us into that same category.

We here firmly believe that you should practice, practice, practice FIRST before you perform. We do not equate ourselves with piano recitals, where a child is encouraged by their instructor to go out and perform chopsticks or Heart and Soul in the chapel with cake and coffee afterward. We do not take lightly those who cheapen our art through exposure, whether intentional or not, and I personally condemn those who do. My own brother was posting exposure videos on his myspace, and I threatened to turn him in for copyright infringement!

I have read a few of your posts, sir, and you seem to be here to encourage exposure in the name of creativity, and encourage the unpracticed in the name of cuteness. Seeing as how this is a free country, and you are allowed to have and voice your opinions, feel free. I disagree with you wholeheartedly, especially when encouraging minors to work illegally, against the child labor laws that are in force in our country.

You say that you would be receptive of a 13 year old working at a restaurant. Unless his parents owned it, I would be reporting the establishement to the authorities.

Just my humble opinion. I will now step down off my soapbox, and return to a relative state of norlmacy.

James Jay


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:45 pm 
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James,

I respect your opinion, and appreciate you responding in a courteous and well thought out manor. Clearly we disagree, but I hope if anyone else responds in this thread, we can continue to be mature. I don’t expect anyone here to agree with me, which is fine. I assure you, it will not end in tears on my end.

I’m not trying to rehash the exposure debate, but perhaps a revisit is unavoidable. First let me clear something up. I do NOT encourage exposure. I simply don’t think it’s the kryptonite to magic that everyone else seems to think. I realize I don’t have a lot of credibility around here because I’ve admitted I’m new to magic. Just the same, I’m old enough to know better.

If you’re really worried about 13 year olds ruining your profession/hobby, then 13 year olds are the least of your problems. If a generation of snot nosed pre-teen youtubers can ruin magic, then it’s too fragile to begin with. I personally don’t believe this is true. Magic had been around for millennia, and it will survive youtube.

I had no idea magicians are so closely linked to attorneys. Although I myself am not a lawyer, I am engaged to one (not that that has anything to do with anything). I’m pretty sure it’s legal enough so long as the restaurant is not paying him. Either way, I doubt “the authoritiesâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:42 am 
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nobody here is being discouraging really.

if you are unwilling to get your act together and undercut the community by undercharging

nobody has said don't get expirience, there is a right way to get expirience though, and that's get you're act together and DONT work proffesionally if you are not proffesional quality.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:58 am 
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The simple fact is that a 13 year old is too young to work legally. And the establishment that hires them will end up being called in about it. It is what happens.

Flight hasn't shown the maturity or skill that is needed to succeed as a restaurant magician. What most people don't realize is that restaurant magic isn't like normal magic. You aren't just a magician, you're basically an ambassador for the restaurant. There is a lot more to restaurant magic then just performing a couple of tricks from table to table. You make sure that they are doing alright. You strike up converstations with them. You help keep the restaurant running smoothly on busy nights. You make people less aware if their food is taking a longer time then usual. You entertain children so the adults can get a rest. And so on.

It's a job that you must show maturity, because if you don't, you will get into trouble. One instance that I remember from when I was first starting off was when I was performing for a large biker male. He had some drinks in him, and for some reason, I guess he just didn't like me. I honestly thought the guy was going to break me apart, because became very clear he wasn't quite angry. And the only reason I didn't get knocked out, was because I was able to handle the situation in a mature manner, and I'm a very quick talker.
I had prepared for instances like that, because they do arise. And if you can't take a little criticism, and you can't show maturity, you aren't going to last very long.

Also, if one magician screws up, it can screw over other magicians in the area. If a restaurant hires a magician, and they aren't prepared, screw up, and just do a bad job, that restaurant isn't going to hire another magician any time soon.

The advice that is given from the various people here is coming from real experience. If listened to, it can be of great help. I found that out first hand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:23 am 
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born to perform.

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Location: In a galaxy somewhere in the vicinity of Betelguese 5
[quote="bhindthecurtin"]James,

I respect your opinion, and appreciate you responding in a courteous and well thought out manor. Clearly we disagree, but I hope if anyone else responds in this thread, we can continue to be mature. I don’t expect anyone here to agree with me, which is fine. I assure you, it will not end in tears on my end.

I’m not trying to rehash the exposure debate, but perhaps a revisit is unavoidable. First let me clear something up. I do NOT encourage exposure. I simply don’t think it’s the kryptonite to magic that everyone else seems to think. I realize I don’t have a lot of credibility around here because I’ve admitted I’m new to magic. Just the same, I’m old enough to know better.

If you’re really worried about 13 year olds ruining your profession/hobby, then 13 year olds are the least of your problems. If a generation of snot nosed pre-teen youtubers can ruin magic, then it’s too fragile to begin with. I personally don’t believe this is true. Magic had been around for millennia, and it will survive youtube.

I had no idea magicians are so closely linked to attorneys. Although I myself am not a lawyer, I am engaged to one (not that that has anything to do with anything). I’m pretty sure it’s legal enough so long as the restaurant is not paying him. Either way, I doubt “the authoritiesâ€


Last edited by jamesjay1 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:34 am 
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Mods, will you PLEASE!!!!!! Lock this frigging topic!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:08 am 
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Not yet... So far this a well thought out discussion between adults. Granted, I believe bhindthecurtain is playing devils advocate to some degree, but the conversation is going well. Let's hope it stays that way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:11 am 
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The DVD Street Theater has a segment about Coady (Coadster) who started juggling on the streets even earlier. Yes, his parents are with him, but he has a mature attitude, and he knows he's playing the "cute kid" card, but as long as it can work for him, he's doing better than some adults. Even the other buskers have respect and admiration for him.

I'm not saying all kids should go out and inflict their version of magic on the unsuspecting public, but I'm saying there are exceptions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:36 am 
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 75
You’re spot on once again DaveV. I am playing the devil’s advocate, which I can never resist. All the same, in this case I feel strongly about the point.

It’s clear that I’m not going to change anyone’s mind, and believe it or not, I’m not trying. I’m simply trying to provide a little encouragement to youth which is desperately lacking around here. I know, I know, “tough love… they have no respect… they won’t follow good advice… blah blah blah.â€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:06 am 
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born to perform.

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Location: In a galaxy somewhere in the vicinity of Betelguese 5
[quote="bhindthecurtin"]You’re spot on once again DaveV. I am playing the devil’s advocate, which I can never resist. All the same, in this case I feel strongly about the point.

It’s clear that I’m not going to change anyone’s mind, and believe it or not, I’m not trying. I’m simply trying to provide a little encouragement to youth which is desperately lacking around here. I know, I know, “tough love… they have no respect… they won’t follow good advice… blah blah blah.â€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:52 pm 
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I think I have a unique perspective on this subject because I was one of those "knuckleheads" when I first started participating in these forums. I got into it with a couple of the more experience, because I was arrognant and thought I knew everything. As time went on, I realized that I didn't. I had a lot to learn.

It's a lot easier to take these people's advice, then try to battle with it. Some of the members here may come off as offensive. But really, they love the art, and are trying to help. It get's annoying though when people don't want to listen to the advice that they ask for.

And there is quite a bit of encouragement here. I know the videos that I've posted have come with quite a bit of encouragement, but at the same time, quite a bit of advice. Sometimes, the advice sounds quite harsh, but taking the advice to heart, and using it. Well, my shows and performances just keep becoming better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:26 pm 
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born to perform.

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DaveV wrote:
Not yet... So far this a well thought out discussion between adults. Granted, I believe bhindthecurtain is playing devils advocate to some degree, but the conversation is going well. Let's hope it stays that way.


DaveV wrote:
The DVD Street Theater has a segment about Coady (Coadster) who started juggling on the streets even earlier. Yes, his parents are with him, but he has a mature attitude, and he knows he's playing the "cute kid" card, but as long as it can work for him, he's doing better than some adults. Even the other buskers have respect and admiration for him.

I'm not saying all kids should go out and inflict their version of magic on the unsuspecting public, but I'm saying there are exceptions.


Dave, two posts in a row! I am disappointed... :wink:

Seriously guys, no matter how you try and hide it, no matter if you believe in world peace and not upsetting anyone; and adult will treat a child... like a child.

If a 12 year old goes and busks, he may make some money. But how much of it is out of pity? An adult will see a child as a child, a teenager as a teenager, and an adult as an adult.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:41 pm 
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very good point. I whole-heartedly agree.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:46 pm 
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fspigeon wrote:
If a 12 year old goes and busks, he may make some money. But how much of it is out of pity? An adult will see a child as a child, a teenager as a teenager, and an adult as an adult.


This kid was pulling in hundred dollar hats! Some were tens and twenties. Not bad for pity money.

Granted, he's playing on the "cute kid" thing now, but if he keeps up this pace, he'll be outshining us all by the time he reaches our age.


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