I just wanted to respond on this topic because it struck home. I used to post pretty regularly on Penguin, and trust me when I say this, I am a huge supporter of our youth. I volunteer working with kids and mentoring. My 13 year old daughter does the same and is very mature for her age.

I left the forum a while back because I just got "tired" of all the negativity and fighting. I am a "try to focus on the positive and be helpful type of person" while to balance my answers with honesty.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate the maturity found in this thread. Whether adults, teens, or children, we will all have our own opinions and thoughts on a subject, however when handled in a professional and respectful manner it is so much easier to convey our message.

It is so important to be a role model for our youths. Great job guys!

~ Wendebird

PS-- I didn't know a Scoundrel lurked in these parts! Been so busy lately haven't been able to get over there, but I'm pretty sure Zazz is still a frequent visitor!

Youth = OUR future

It greatly saddens me how most (but not all as shown by this thread) adult magicians in the world now think negatively about the youth doing magic because of the amount of kids who don't perform well. Just because the majority of underage magicians at this moment in time are "Youtube, Blaine, Angel, exposers" does not mean that all of them are. Sure, there are many out there, sure I have encountered more than I can count, and sure I have given them advice only for them to not follow it and tell me the next day that they "Prefer to do it their way", but there are also the magic protégées that are underage.

I know of a 12 year old magician who has been doing kids shows for over 2 years, for pay, and (not sure of the exact amount) probably does around 2 shows every month for private parties. He is incredible, and has even been able to teach me some things about magic. He is devoted to his art, and spends all of his spare time doing magic. He has been doing magic longer than some of the "Professionals" here, some of which may/may not have even posted in the previous thread criticizing young magicians. I have only seen him make a mistake in an effect once, ever. And he has wowed me with even tricks that I knew the methodology behind. He will be incredible when he grows up, and is incredible now, and I am very grateful that he did not read the previous thread a day before his first show and then give up on his dream.

Magic IS suffering an epidemic of young magicians exposing out art, but there are also the you magicians that are working wonders in our art, who will be the next Banachek, the next Paul Harris, the next Johnny Thompson.

Now look back on this post and try to guess my age.

The sad thing is, I, at age 14, am open-minded enough to realize this. To realize that not every kid is a "Youtuber".

The kid talked about above is not me, but a kid at my local SYM assembly, assembly #29 of the Boston, MA area.

My story is the following:

I saw my first trick from my dad at age 4 and was interested in magic ever since. At age 6 I started to get interested in how the tricks were done, and my father taught me very simple tricks (the only few tricks he knew that were not card effects that he was taught) and although I screwed them up (I was 6, so I was allowed) I loved performing them every single time I had the chance. At age 7 I got my first magic book, and started practicing the card and rope effects in them (at 7 I was not too fond of coin magic and could not afford stage props), I practiced them until I got them right, and although I WILL admit to getting anxious at times and showing them to my mom or dad when they were not perfected, I never, even at age 7, showed them to anyone else until they were perfected. By age 8-9 I had started getting better in magic, and showed a new trick about every week at school, I'll also admit to repeating them, but it was the practice in front of REAL people that mattered then, not the fact that I repeated a simple trick that half of them already knew. Around age 10 I bought Mark Wilson's Complete Course in magic, and started learning from that. I then turned into what you would call a "Teen" when I was about 10-11, and started buying everything I could from Penguin...And I mean EVERYTHING that I could afford, ripped open the packaging, and played with the tricks before reading the instructions...But I learned, and I kept the spark of magic alive in me. I then put on a show for my grandparents around the age of 12. I then kept trying to put together a stage show, but being the know-it-all that I was, I "knew" I needed to 100 dollar props to make my show a success and continued buying things and doing close-up magic with cards and coins at school (I did magic at school from 5th grade until now, the end of 8th grade).

I have now created a stage act, and am working on a second one, and now also have 3, 10-minute close up acts for kids, kids and adults, and purely adult groups. I have done 1 paid show, at age 13 might I add, which was a strolling Christmas party gig, a charity show for the Knights of Columbus for a Christmas party, and a charity show for a festival that my synagogue hosts every single year. I also have a show lined up for June 6th which will be a stage show for the kindergarten at a local school, and am also going to talk to the principal of one of the elementary schools in the next town over to see if I can also do a charity show there. They don't hire me out of pity, they hire me because I tell them how long I have done magic, give them a brief description about what will happen, and show them the strongest thing I have been working on lately. I also hook them in with the "freeness" of the show, but what they may/may not realize, is that me doing the show there IS paying off, because they are *forcefully* publishing me and my number in their publications that go out as e-mails and newsletters.

I AM also going to talk to a local restaurant about having a summer job there under a contract as a strolling magician. 2-3 days a week for 1.5-2 hours a day. What resources do I have on the subject of restaurant magic? Kirk Charle's Complete Guide to Restaurant Magic. What did I learn from it? Always carry extra props because [edited] will happen. How to make a good contract. How to get a 99% chance of being hired for at least one night. How much to charge. Who to perform to and who to avoid. How to approach a table. And when and when not to approach a table. The best way to dress, and to not over-dress compared to the manager. What did I think up on my own? To create a "Rate the magician" card for the first night that I work. Show the manager how many people liked me, and how many didn't. Also to show the manager if they will now mention the restaurant to a friend because of me (which every restaurant worker here knows, basically tells the manager that I am justified in charging "x" amount of money).

Am I in magic to make money? Yes AND No.

Am I into magic to become famous? No, however nice that may be, it is not the reason I do magic.

Am I in magic because I love it? Yes.

Is the only reason I wish to make money doing magic is to make a living and support myself and my future family doing what I love? Yes

What is my main reason I love magic so much? The look of astoundment, amazement, and astonishment in a spectator's eyes when an effect is perfectly executed.



If you skipped ahead most of this reply because of the length, stop here and continue reading please.

And now to everyone who still believes I am too young to start doing magic professionally (even though I already have shows lined up and have shows under my belt, it does not make me a professional) I will tell you what Johnny Thompson himself told me when I saw him at Hank Lee's Annual Cape Cod Magic Conclave on the last day of the convention when I sat down and talked one on one with him for a few minutes.

He told me to do as many shows as I can, do them for free, and do them everywhere. Do not do them to get rich, and do not do them to become famous. Work at hospitals, do shows for kids, perform every minute you can and anywhere you can.

Now, I already planned on doing the above but was hesitant; hearing them from Johnny Thompson himself made all the difference to me.

He started out that way, and he started out in his teens. He NEVER did magic to become famous, but to make a living and support his family doing what he loved.


I know I probably did not turn many of you with my post...I know everyone except a special one or two of you read the entire thing (and for those that did not, I encourage you do take the time and do so when you get a chance)..But as long as I made one of you see the light, even if just barely, with this post, then my job here is done.

I also apologize for the lengthiness of this post, but I believe everything that was said, was essential to be put out there, out in the open.

All the best to all of you, and all your magic,
~Magically Dave

yet its still always the kids claiming age isnt an issue.

magicman- What I don't think you're understanding is that we aren't saying that a young magician automatically sucks. We aren't telling them not to do shows. We are stating that they do not have the maturity, and aren't legally able to work in a restaurant. I don't give a [edited] how talented the magician is, the fact is, the law is the law.

Go ahead and do all of your shows. That's great. And you aren't breaking any laws. But working at a restaurant does mean you have to be a certain age. You can't disagree with that. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, the law doesn't change.

I read your post the whole way through, and you appear to be a very mature young man, who recognizes what is necessary to succeed in our art. The main argument that has been had here is the exact point fallingblood, I, and others have tried to drill through the heads of those under the legal working age:

Federal law absolutely prohibits the working of certain ages, of which can be found here

12 year olds CAN NOT legally work in restaurants. Those who employ children under the age of 14 are subject to these laws.

The question is not talent. I have no doubts of your talents.

The question is of legality.

Would a restaraunt hire a 12 or 13 year old kid who had studied business for the last say 4 years for their manager?


NO!!!!!


Unless they're stupid. Just because the kid may know some things, does not mean they can handle all of those things properly under working conditions.

And above all else......

They're a kid!!! For crying out loud! Kids don't get serious jobs!

I could see a very rare exception of a 15 year old that had been doing magic very seriously since they were like 8 or whatever, but that would be very rare.

My thing is, if you could go provide for yourself with a serious job, and live just fine without mom and dad around, then you probably have the maturity to work in restaraunts doing magic.

But that is not a kid!

A kid is just a kid! I don't take kids seriously just when they TALK to me, much less if they are going to try to perform something for me.

If I ran a restaraunt, and a 12 or 13 year old kid, or probably even a 14 or 15 year old too, asked me if I would hire them as a magician, I would probably treat them like it was a joke. I wouldn't even consider hiring a magician unless they were 16. And even that is very young to start at a restaraunt.

I completely agree with those who say its too young on here. I mean common sense tells you that. Even if you're the exception where you're good enough, you're still not OLD enough.

I believe to legally work in a restaurant for pay (at least in my state) is age 14 for a certain amount of hours of which I do not remember. But the question is not of performing for pay (to my knowledge) or not; and to "offer a generous, free service" to get experience is, to my knowledge, completely legal if you twist it around enough for when you indeed turn 14 or whatever the legal working age in your area is.

I however may have misunderstood, and in that case, I must agree, but ONLY with businesses. Do as many private shows as you can, even if not at a legal working age, because if it is not a business, nobody will give a hoot, especially at 12-13 if you can pass yourself off as a 14+ year old with height, bodily features, and maturity.

As for you, thecoolonto, I do not know you, so I will not try to be overly critical of you personally, but in general of people who have the same mindset of teenagers and adolescents as you.

I absolutely hate people who treat me, and others who are very mature for their age (I hope I do not sound overly bold with that statement, but on a previous forum when I told people my age, they did not believe me and thought if I was really that age, that my mom or dad was posting for me) in a poor and sarcastic manner just because of their age. Sure, most teenagers are immature punks, and that is what the word teenager is synonymous with, but there are a select few, the exception children, just like the exception children in magic who are not. People like Johnny Thompson, as stated in my earlier post, started out young, and I'd be very shocked if people like Bob Cassidy, Derren Brown, Tony Binarelli, Skilldini, Dirk Losander, Scarne, Ascanio, Annemann, Max Maven, Jon Allen, Kirk Charles and many others did not start performing at a young age and resented the way they were treated by people such as yourself. What I say is intended to be interpreted in a respectful manner, but I really do need to rant about this. Some adults are just ignorant of the fact that kids can be mature, sometimes more mature than the adults themselves, and deserve the benefit of the doubt.

As for your example about a kid coming into your restaurant, I believe that would be the wrong course of action. If the kid came into my office wearing baggy jeans, and an Eminem t-shirt and a Yankees cap, walked up to my desk and said "Yo yo yo dude! I be doin' magic all up in 'dis 'stablishment if it be aight wit' you.", I would turn him away right away and not bother even listening to him. However if the someone else came in wearing a nice suit and said "Hello Mr. Rysin, if you have a moment, I would like to speak to you about an opportunity to add entertainment value to your fine establishment, if not, I would appreciate if we could schedule an appointment for a later date." I would have him site down, and give him the benefit of the doubt and talk to them and admit to the fact that yes, the may be more mature than some of my employees are!

As far as kids not getting serious jobs, I highly resent that. There are exceptions, and there are kids who know what they want with their life, who set goals, who accomplish them, who are academically above their grade level, and who devote themselves to their art.

I do not intend this post to start an argument, and if you feel it is necessary to continue this DEBATE any further, would you please continue it in a PM as to not get this topic locked as it is a very important one, and one that should be kept alive.

All the best to everyone and their magic,
~Magically Dave

Here is the irony of the issue:

If the "mga1ca1n"(not prepared) is not ready for a job then he will ask if he is ready and will then argue about age.

If the Magician is truly ready he will not piss and moan about age because he is secure in his own abilities and does not spend hours on this forum and actuallly performs.

I just had an appifiny(spl).

magicman- You do make a good point. Some teenagers might be mature. However, the fact of the matter is the the overwhelming majority are not as mature as they would like to believe. It's because of this overwhelming majority that a stereotype has been started. The stereotype may not be the best, but for many, it does save them a lot of time and money, because they won't deal with teenagers, the majority of them, just being a waste of the time and money.

I am not *word edited automatically, please look in quote above* and moaning, I am offering my opinion, just as everyone else is, on this subject. If you do not wish to be part of this debate, or believe it is ironic and have a sarcastic and unnecessary comment to say, please keep it to yourself. We here are having a healthy debate and if you choose to be part of it, at least say something remotely pertinent and important to the debate.

I agree that the poster from the previous topic was no where near ready to perform, this however, is a different thread and therefore a different discussion. We are not debating about him, but young magicians in general.

As far as the hours on the forum, I had a long day, a lot of homework, got a haircut, went to the bank to get a sign a paper that needed to be notarized, and did in fact practice magic with a little bit of free time that I had when I was not on this forum posting something pertinent and helpful to this debate. And I also do not have to explain myself to you, but considering the fact that you would think I spend all my free time on here if I didn't I thought it would be best if I did.

Please to not post impertinent spam, and please do not post a rant to my current post. If you decide to, you can take it to PM to make it better for all of the moderators of the forum...But what do I know?

Let the healthy debate continue!

All the best to all and their magic,
~Magically Dave

I apologize for the double post, but Falling and I posted around the same time.

You bring up a very good point, a point that I COMPLETELY and utterly agree with. The stereotype exists for a reason, I just resent the fact that we are not even given the benefit of the doubt.

Think about all the stereotypes-

Blondes are dumb.....Is Hillary Clinton (no matter what your views on her may be).

African American males (I apologize for this, I am not a racist, and respect all races and religions and ethnicities, but this stereotype does exist) commit crime daily.....Does Governor and (possibly) future president Deval Patrick?

Is every Mexican in Texas illegal? No

Every single stereotype has many, some more know about, some less exceptions. If we give Hillary Clinton the benefit of the doubt, why not some teenage "punk".

Sure, if someone on here posts, "Im teh gettingz 150 cash monies for show tomorrow, wht shud i do?", ignore them completely. But if somebody here posts "I am starting to look into restaurant magic and hope to do it someday, what forms of effects work best, and how many effect and for how long would you recommend performing for per table. Also, does anyone know a good book on the subject?", give them the benefit of the doubt, you can always choose to take it away later.

Best wishes to everyone,
~Magically Dave

I said specifically only when they ask if they are ready THEN start to argue about age.

And I never even said the word ugly (or such a synonym)

PLUS

If you think about it MOST (not all) don't spend hours on forums like this
Most will not piss nor moan on such a forum.

My post was not sarcastic but it is slightly ironic.

I believe I did not completely understand you the first time you posted, I still believe it was slightly impertinent, but now I do agree with you. Someone should not be asking people on a forum if they are ready, they should know in their heart of hearts if they are ready or not. And if they then start to argue, well then, that is just pointless and proves them immature.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, and as for the word "ugly", it was automatically put in by the sensory software Penguin has up when I wrote in the present form of the word "piss".

Best of luck to all and their magic,
~Magically Dave

It's okay when you said " I am not ugly and moaning" I amost died from an astma attack.

My post was also somwhat, accidentily, to an exent, possibly, vague ,because I love such conversations.
NOT impertinent.